Archtops?

[Donuts]

If I could find a fully hollow electric guitar (by 'electric guitar' I here mean a guitar with a pickup typical of solidbody electrics) that could also perform acoustically, it would be ideal for my purposes. So I'm considering an archtop. The first one that caught my interest was the Gretsch G5120, but after reading comments like this:

"jae0584, the G5120 is a semi hollow body electric guitar, if you are not going to play with an amp you shouldn't get it. As with all electric guitars they are made to be used with an amp. Unlike solid bodies hollow bodies have some sound without an amp but it is very low. The G100CE is an acoustic guitar with a pickup added. It is virtually the same model as the acoustic G100 except the g100 does not have the cutout or the pickup. The G100 and G100CE run about $50 difference in price."

I'm now considering the more traditional, 1930s-style G100CE.


The problem is that it and others like it are all marketed as jazz guitars, and all people seem to play on them is watery, mellow stuff.
Compare its review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8b2Gudm7Z0
to what I want to play on that model:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TyzAAwJnIw

Is the Gretsch G100CE quite what I'm looking for, and can you offer any general advice on acoustically playable archtops?

[HHP]

If might be helpful if you describe what you plan to play, what sort of tone you are looking for, etc.

[Bluemonk]

Archtops may be marketed as jazz (not all of which is "watery" and "mellow," by the way) guitars, but they are much more versatile than that. For probably not much more than that Gretsch, you can get a fully handcarved, acoustically lively Eastman archtop, if you don't mind that it's made in China. For quite a bit more, you can get a Campellone, which is a superlative guitar and still rates high in the bang-for-the-buck department compared to other handmade archtops.

[Wade Hampton]

Donuts, the thing about archtop guitars is that even those that are intended solely as acoustic instruments have a very different attack and sound to them than standard flattop guitars have. Typically they have much less sustain and a much quicker note decay - they punch the notes right out but the notes don't linger in the same way that they would on a flattop guitar.

Which is fine, if that's what you want. But know that going in.

I should mention that there are some modern handbuilt archtops made by luthiers like Erich Solomon that have very different sustain characteristics that are much closer to a flattop's, but in the sort of price range you're looking at, what I wrote in the first paragraph of this post is accurate.

What I would suggest you do is search out a music store within driving distance that carries Seagull and Godin guitars. A few years ago this Canadian guitar company came out with a line of archtop guitars called the 5th Avenue. Here's the basic, all acoustic version in three different finishes:



Here's the 5th Avenue Kingpin with one pickup:



And here are some other options and different versions:








My recommendation is that you search out and play some of these 5th Avenue and 5th Avenue Kingpins to see whether they give you the sort of sound you're hoping for. If not, you might find that putting a soundhole-mounted magnetic pickup in a regular flattop guitar might be the answer for you.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[slewis]

Listen to Wade! Seriously, I just yesterday took delivery of my new Kingpin II (see adjacent thread) and I'm not at all planning to use it for exclusively "mellow" stuff. I just do solo acoustic guitar & vocal covers, for the most part, but I'm excited to use this to diversify my sound. Not that that's your question -- and I'm new to archtops too -- but I did my homework before buying and I really liked the value Godin builds into these, and I read a ton of good reviews on 'em. Good luck!

[mr. beaumont]

If you want that fred mcdowell sound, cruise ebay for old Kays or harmonys...in good condition, they can be excellent players, but for slide, sometimes a little high acton is desirable. There is a blond non cut Kay on ebay right now that I am drooling over...solid top over lam maple...yum.

The Gretsches like the 5120 are a electric guitar. they have little to no acoustic tone.


The G100CE is marketed more to the jazz crowd, with its floating kent armstrong style mini bucker. they are pretty polite sounding low output pickups. i played one, a good looking but bland and uninspiring instrument.

Solid topped archtops give a richer tone acoustically. I'm currently debating ordering a Loar, as i'd like a solid topped non cut archie to add to my arsenal.

For a nasty blues sound, sometimes laminate is better. a guitar that does a pretty good job with the boxy, lam archtop sound is the godin fifth avenue. Very well made guitars.

A decent all acoustic archtop like some of these can be mild or wild really...all depends on how you set them up and play them. I play an early 60"s Kay cutaway, and while I use it as a jazz guitr, if I were to jack up the action a bit and bust out a bottleneck, i could get that fred mcdowell sound.


Lots of flattop players find the sound thin of archtops thin, but in the right application, there's nothing finer.

[Archtop Guy]

I'm not surprised at your confusion. The word archtop gets used to describe a wide range of guitars form total electric to total acoustic. You need to learn a bit to understand all the variants in between.

First off, people use archtops for lots more than just "watery, mellow stuff." Check out Maybelle Carter for a start. You can use an arcthop for any kind of music. The guitar doesn't limit you, you limit you.

OK, back to guitars. There's a sort of continuum to archtops. Here's the approximate spectrum starting from most electric and heading to most acoustic.

• Semi-hollow - has f-holes but has a solid block of wood between the top and back. meant to be played with an amp. Like an ES-335.

• Laminated wood full hollow - has no block but the laminated wood is designed to not vibrate all that well, so as to reduce feedback. These guitars commonly have a mounted (set into a cutout in the top) pickup, and are meant to be played through an amp. Like an ES-175.

• All solid wood, a carved top, but with PUs mounted to the top. The solid, carved wood gives it a strong acoustic sound, but the weight of the PUs on the wood mutes volume a bit. People definitely play these as acoustics, and regularly mic them, but it'd be unusual to have one as your only acoustic guitar. Like an L-5CES.

• Fully acoustic, all solid wood, carved top. No PU mounted directly to the top, no cutout holes for PUs. May or may not have a PU floating above the top, mounted to either the pickguard or the neck. These are no compromise acoustic guitars. They will hang with a dreadnought or any other acoustic at any jam session. These are my passion. Like an L-5.

The bottom end of this scale can get pretty pricey. If you're a beginner you can get started with a laminate guitar for a reasonable price. But beware that once you head down this path you can get hooked.

I like your Gretsch. Have you played one?

[mr. beaumont]

The above post should be linked to in every archtop thread, from now on.

[Wade Hampton]

Just to expand on what Archtop Guy wrote: most hollow laminated archtop guitars I've encountered are designed so that there's minimal acoustic vibration from the top, in order to reduced problems with feedback when plugged in. The same thing is true of the Gibson J-160E that the Beatles used to play:



All laminated wood construction, including the top. If you look carefully at the bottom of the fingerboard of the guitars in the photo, you'll see that there's a magnetic pickup there.

Even though the original version of this guitar was designed to be feedback- resistant, it can still feed back quite a bit, as amply demonstrated by John Lennon's guitar in "I Feel Fine."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X9Mf...eature=related

That video seems to have been patched together with some other footage, but it's got Lennon with the 160E, which is what you hear on all the lead playing on that song.

I'm pretty sure Gibson still makes the J-160E in a version with a solid spruce top, but the Epiphone version is less expensive and equally functional:



So it might be worth your while to call around and see if there are any Epiphone dealers within driving distance of you who have a J-160E you can try out.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Donuts]

Thanks for the replies, all.

Originally Posted by HHP

If might be helpful if you describe what you plan to play, what sort of tone you are looking for, etc.

I play a kind of sparse fingerstyle blues. I can't play slide, but I love the sound, so I'll probably learn eventually.
Here's an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H71LloAf_fA

Originally Posted by Bluemonk

For probably not much more than that Gretsch, you can get a fully handcarved, acoustically lively Eastman archtop, if you don't mind that it's made in China. For quite a bit more, you can get a Campellone, which is a superlative guitar and still rates high in the bang-for-the-buck department compared to other handmade archtops.

Noted.

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If you want that fred mcdowell sound, cruise ebay for old Kays or harmonys...in good condition, they can be excellent players, but for slide, sometimes a little high acton is desirable. There is a blond non cut Kay on ebay right now that I am drooling over...solid top over lam maple...yum.

The Gretsches like the 5120 are a electric guitar. they have little to no acoustic tone.

The G100CE is marketed more to the jazz crowd, with its floating kent armstrong style mini bucker. they are pretty polite sounding low output pickups. i played one, a good looking but bland and uninspiring instrument.

Solid topped archtops give a richer tone acoustically. I'm currently debating ordering a Loar, as i'd like a solid topped non cut archie to add to my arsenal.

For a nasty blues sound, sometimes laminate is better. a guitar that does a pretty good job with the boxy, lam archtop sound is the godin fifth avenue. Very well made guitars.

A decent all acoustic archtop like some of these can be mild or wild really...all depends on how you set them up and play them. I play an early 60"s Kay cutaway, and while I use it as a jazz guitr, if I were to jack up the action a bit and bust out a bottleneck, i could get that fred mcdowell sound.

Lots of flattop players find the sound thin of archtops thin, but in the right application, there's nothing finer.

Thank you - I'll look into vintage stuff. The name Kay keeps coming up elsewhere, so they might be interesting. I was also considering the Loar, but I don't know whether you can install a pickup on one without much bother.

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Donuts, the thing about archtop guitars is that even those that are intended solely as acoustic instruments have a very different attack and sound to them than standard flattop guitars have. Typically they have much less sustain and a much quicker note decay - they punch the notes right out but the notes don't linger in the same way that they would on a flattop guitar.

(...)

My recommendation is that you search out and play some of these 5th Avenue and 5th Avenue Kingpins to see whether they give you the sort of sound you're hoping for.

Hmm. I like to let bass notes linger a second or so [which is longer than you would think when you're recording it;] do acoustically played archtops last that long, or does it sound as if they've been palm-muted?

5th Avenue brand noted.

Originally Posted by Archtop Guy

I like your Gretsch. Have you played one?

No, unfortunately. There's not much selection where I live - I'll be going to a big city come spring, so I'll be able to take my time and try various archtops out, without buying 'blind' on the internet.

[Bingoccc]

You don't get to see the guitar until the video is well on but Josh's Gretsch sounds like what you might be seeking. I think his is some version of the 400 maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrv8C...layer_embedded

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Donuts

Hmm. I like to let bass notes linger a second or so [which is longer than you would think when you're recording it;] do acoustically played archtops last that long, or does it sound as if they've been palm-muted?

Depends on the archtop. Acoustic sustain is not something they're generally noted for.


whm

[jimmy bookout]

The posters in this thread have given great advice here. For fun, here's an acoustic archtop played by a master, I never tire of Homer's tone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eYIa9ZTCLQ

Jimmy

[mstuartev]

Yeah if you want that old time blues sound, you don't need a fancy new expensive guitar. The aforementioned Harmony or Kay or, if you can find it for a good price, a 40's or very early 50's Epiphone (pre-Kalamzoo sale). Then find a monkey on a stick D'Armand pickup to attach to the top.

If you want old time blues mojo... check this out
Stella Jumbo Copy

[Taylorplayer]

I am still dreaming of the day when I can get a really good archtop. Most likely not in the plans for a few more years...

But, as I have heard it said: Just because you're on a diet, it doesn't mean you can't still look at the menu" :-)

I've been surfing a few sites that really seem to concentrate on hollow bodies - if nothing else, I am all the more prepared for when the times comes to buy.