Fingerpicking up the neck fretting thumb

[Hman0217]

Hello all

I consider myself an "advanced novice" fingerstylist. I am getting to the point where I am - finally - starting to experience independence of the bass (thumb) and melody (other three fingers).

Where I find myself challenged now is if I want to play high up the first three strings while keeping the alternating bass thumb going. It's not an issue so much in A or D, where the bass strings are open (I'm playing standard tuning), because then my fretting thumb is off the hook.

But especially in a chord like Bm, I find myself tied to the first position in a bar chord with very limited mobility in the melody fretting fingers. In order to play up the neck and keep bass going, I'd have to play the seventh and ninth frets on strings 6 and 5, respectively, which doesn't sound great on those thick bass strings. Plus, I could thumb the sixth string but not so much the fifth string. So then I could just drop the alternation and play the same bass note over and over but that compromises the feel, imo


I am not expecting so much a specific "do this" kinda answer on here so much as a general pointing in the right direction on how to take myself to the next level in my fingerstyle adventure.

I am mostly self taught, drawing from a little YouTube and own ears. I've bought and downloaded some lessons from folks I've enjoyed hearing too. But most of the lessons are "how to play a song" and not "how to develop intermediate technique and beyond". I am open to that to furthering th adventure.

Any thoughts or experiences are welcome

Thank you

[Hman0217]

FYI, I titled it "...fretting thumb" but I meant fretting bass strings in general. It wouldn't let me adjust the title.

[AX17609]

Maintaining an alternating thumb up the neck is not easy. Whether you wrap your thumb or not is a function of the size of your hands and the size and shape of your guitar neck.

The guy who unlocked the issue for me was Ernie Hawkins, one of the guitarists in Stefan Grossman's stable and a master of the style of Rev Gary Davis. Ernie works out of the CAGED system. One of the tunes he teaches is a version of RGD's Cincinnati Flow Rag, which he plays in all five CAGED positions. It's a killer but I found it worth the effort.

[davidbeinct]

I have a few thoughts, probably none of which are exactly what you’re looking for.
I think there’s a reason that a lot (not all, but a lot) of fingerpicking songs that move up the neck use a monotonic rather than alternating bass. Those songs are fun to play too.
The C7 shape lends itself well to moving up the neck, as do various “jazz” chords.
Open D. I’d consider myself an advanced beginner too, and I wish I hadn’t resisted open tunings for so long.

[rick-slo]

You can do different things even in pieces with a fair amount alternate thumb patterns. The first of my compositions is basically an alternate thumb exercise type piece.
The second composition of mine is more varied. Experiment

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Temp/ThumbPlayYouTube.wav

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Mu...r/PinkyBee.wav

[Charlie Bernstein]

Never mind. See below.

[TBman]

Mostly barre chords for moving up the neck, but as David says the C7 shape is moveable as long as you mute the open strings. There's a G7 shape (3x343x) that slides to and from the C7 shape that is nice too. Take a look at the CAGED movable chords for further reference.

It's doable, but most do it in the first position for ease of play.

[Bluenose]

Joe Pass said "if you find something difficult to play don't play it". I may be paraphrasing a bit but the idea is find to a work around on difficult passages, fingerings whatever or even get a different guitar that's easier to play..

On the other hand, one of the greatest teachers ever, IMO, Ted Greene, the author of Chord Chemistry among others said " it's all about how bad you want it" which I took to mean keep trying and eventually you will succeed.

I think in a sense both are true even if they are diametrically opposed viewpoints.

[Hman0217]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

You can do different things even in pieces with a fair amount alternate thumb patterns. The first of my compositions is basically an alternate thumb exercise type piece.
The second composition of mine is more varied. Experiment

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Temp/ThumbPlayYouTube.wav

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Mu...r/PinkyBee.wav

Beautiful pieces. Peaceful but interesting and full of texture

Thanks for sharing

[Hman0217]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Maintaining an alternating thumb up the neck is not easy. Whether you wrap your thumb or not is a function of the size of your hands and the size and shape of your guitar neck.



The guy who unlocked the issue for me was Ernie Hawkins, one of the guitarists in Stefan Grossman's stable and a master of the style of Rev Gary Davis. Ernie works out of the CAGED system. One of the tunes he teaches is a version of RGD's Cincinnati Flow Rag, which he plays in all five CAGED positions. It's a killer but I found it worth the effort.

Cool. I'll check it out. I know the five positions but intellectually knowing and getting it into the hands is of course two different things. I would say it is something I naturally started doing to a degree but I know practicing the heck out of it will make it a second nature. Thanks

[JonPR]

The point about fingerpicking - unlike strumming - is you don't have to pay any attention to the strings you are not actually picking!
When strumming chords, you have to either fret every note, or mute the strings you don't want to sound. When fingerpicking, you only hit the strings you want, so the others don't need to be muted.

So, when playing higher up the neck, barre shapes are very rarely required. Occasionally, of course, they make things easier (because sometimes you do want notes on the same fret on different strings), but a lot of the tme they aren't.

Watch Merle Travis using his thumb for most bass notes, just occasional partial barres on the middle strings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkN4KNbkmg

Here's Tommy Emmanuel, Travis picking using shapes higher up - again, sometimes partial barres, but fretting whatever strings he needs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTHqA-wcf_Y

John James playing ragtime, again just with occasional partial barres higher up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgak5jsTIEY

For something a lot simpler than those (!), here's my lesson on how Bert Jansch played alternating bass on chord shapes higher up the neck on one tune at least - and without damping the bass strings in "Travis" style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYaS...U01hLm&index=3
Skip to 4:00 to see the shapes higher up the neck (just one barre shape).

[Charlie Bernstein]

PS -

When I answered that, I was assuming you know your bar chords. Do you?

If not, learn them. The poor player's capo. They let your thumb fret up the neck, and they make transposing keys easier.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by TBman

Mostly barre chords for moving up the neck, but as David says the C7 shape is moveable as long as you mute the open strings. There's a G7 shape (3x343x) that slides to and from the C7 shape that is nice too. Take a look at the CAGED movable chords for further reference.

It's doable, but most do it in the first position for ease of play.

Yup! And you can consider the C7 shape a bar chord, too, since it's used the same way. If another rationale is needed, think of it as a form of the C-shape bar chord.

Hman, also keep in mind that bars don't have to cover all six strings. You can use pieces of them — high, low, or middle strings.

For example, you can take the three fingered notes of the D or A shape and move them up the neck.

Also, notice that that D shape is three strings of the C-shape bar slid up two frets and that A shape is three strings of the G-shape bar moved up two frets.

And here's another approach: Altered tunings let you use bass strings for drones. For example, the ever-popular drop-D tuning (lowering the low E to D) opens up lots of songs in D to continuous thumbing. Celtic and some Appalachian players use GAGDAD a lot. And check out the tuning Richard Thompson uses for "Vincent Black Lightning 1952." He's all over that neck, just continuing the bass drone. Larry McMurtry gets a big sound with his eponymous McMurtry tuning. Joni has a different tuning for every song she writes — in fact, she starts with the tuning and builds the song around it.

[Mr. Jelly]

Some of us do not have hands or thumbs that are usable for fretting without our bodies turning into pretzels to do it. Consider yourself lucky.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Hman0217

…I am not expecting so much a specific "do this" kinda answer on here so much as a general pointing in the right direction on how to take myself to the next level in my fingerstyle adventure.

Hi Hman-etc
I taught fingerstyle guitar for 40 years locally, and have never taught wrapping barres using the thumb. It works ok, on simple passages, but is based on a premise that you need to have all 6 strings being pressed all the time (also the premise of barre chords in general). A lot of fingerstyle cuts that back to thumb and 2 or thumb and 3 strings sounding at once. It's cleaner and far more efficient and mobile.

If you are fingerpicking, just form the chord shape with fingers 2-3-4 and use the index to press the appropriate fret on the bass. Fingerstylists often selectively pick 3-4 strings and either mute or ignore the others. No need to cover all 6 strings all the time. Takes too long.

The chord forms produced are simpler and less cluttered sounding (and often have a more clearly defined bass note).

Take your bm chord for example…
Just form an Am shape on fret 5 (strings 2-3-4) and use your index finger to fret 2 of string 5 and alternate with fret 2 of the 6th string.

That particular combination/fingering will work up the neck anywhere. And you can do this with E shapes, A shape, C shape. You can always mute strings by fretting the note and leaning the pad back to mute the string above it.

Simpler than barre chords, easier on the hands, and more versatile. Usually easier to play 'clean' as well, and and to quickly move around the neck for accompaniment style play.