Is Fish Glue suitable for gluing Braces?

[j. Kinnaird]

I have found that original Titebond is very hard when completely dry. A thin puddle when dry will break like a piece of glass. I have actually cut myself on a piece of dried titebond that I didn't notice until too late. It may not be as brittle as HHG ( but if not its mighty close) but I think it is possible that a glue could be too brittle for the joints own good.

[Brad Goodman]

I have no first hand knowledge of how fish glue behaves,but have heard enough stories of failure to not want to find out.....
So i use it to glue my paper labels and it works wonderfully for that.

I would also recommend that you learn to use hot hide glue.
One of the "tricks" I have learned is to use a go-bar deck to clamp the braces quickly.
Also if you need a little extra time , warm the brace with a heat gun.

[Jlhunt]

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

Hi Jim,
I don't know for a fact but my hunch is that their yellow glue is VERY similar to Titebond yellow with an added florescent dye added. Its obviously working or Chris would not be selling it so I would not panic.

You can put a few drops, enough to cover the bottom of a paper Dixie cup and do the same with HHG then allow both to dry for a few days then tear the cups apart to get down to the glues. Afterwards see if you can imprint the dried glues with your thumb nail. That will give you some tactile comparison of their respective hardnesses.

Thanks Tim,

I will definitely test the two glues to see how they compare.

JIm

[redir]

When I started using torrified wood I was told to use fish glue for the bracing as in fact HHG and Titebond showed failures on T-wood. I believe the reasoning is that T-wood is very hydrophobic and fish being a water based glue that takes a very long time to dry has the time necessary to make a good bond in this case.

The clamping time required for fish glue is 24 hours and not a minute less.

I still have a few guitars out there with the bridges gleud on with fish and so far no problem. I do not use it for anything other then T-wood any more because of the horror stories that you hear from experienced lutheirs.

But I believe John Hall is still a proponent of using Fish for certain applications and many other lutheirs do with good success. Again clamping time cannot be ignored.

I also started my own experiment (I'd have to check the date) but about 8 maybe 10 years ago now where I glued two pieces of walnut together using fish glue and left them in an attic loft here in Virginia that probably gets to 110 deg F in the summer with 80% RH and just last week we hit -5 in the winter. It's been doing that for ten years and is still stuck together. Which reminds me to check on it actually.

So there ya go.

But my recommendation? Just use good old Titebond original. Millions of guitars have been built with it since the 1950's or there about. It's time tested and proven and some of the best luthiers in the world use it to build incredible guitars.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Aside from requiring to be mixed with water and heated, and used with some efficiency time-wise, there is not much I’d call difficult about using HHG. Once one knows how to monitor it’s viscosity, it’s a simple matter to add a bit water now and again as it dries out. People who haven’t used it seem to call it difficult, people who do use it never seem to say that.

Who am I to lend a voice to Bruce's experience, but I agree 100% with all he said above. What some consider "difficult", I find makes working with wood joinery much easier, when you can adjust the viscosity for the type and grain of wood. Yes, its more involved that grabbing a tube of glue and squeezing, but I find the traditional methods part of the mystique of building an instrument.

One more thing...if you go the HHG route, don't be frugal. It usually comes in bulk, so mix what you need in a small glass container in a water bath, use it, then discard it and make a new batch for your next session. The glue DOES change as it warms and sits, and it is perishable over a longer period of time at room temps. Many will say it can be re-warmed and used, and it can, but I find that takes a little more attention, and has several pitfalls. Its good experience to learn your mixing rations by repetition, also. And remember, there's no shame in using different types of glues in different situations if you are more or less comfortable...

[Bruce Sexauer]

I find that 3 heaping tsp dry is about the right amount of HHG for an entire guitar. I only mix it once, and then use it while adjusting viscosity until it is gone. The best time to mix it is a day before gluing on the bridge, which is the most critical join as far as strength and reliability are concerned. Ideally, the last use of the previous batch is gluing the neck to the body, if you do that: I do.

"People say" that the glue deteriorates over repeated reheating, and while I can't speak to that thought directly, I can say as long as it has not gone moldy and the viscosity is maintained, I have never had a single issue related to aging of the glue.

"People also say" that they don't hear a difference between PVA guitars and HHG guitars. Perhaps they don't have the experience that I do, or I am more suggestible than I can admit (probably a bit of both), but the difference is quite audible to me, and can be described in simile: Looking at a view through a window with a screen on it is certainly a very fine thing, especially on a sunny day in some form of paradise. Remove the screen; same view, but beyond comparison in quality. Once experienced, why go back? "Bugs" is the answer, but not in this simile. HHG has a purity of clarity, an aesthetic beauty in tone, that I don't hear in my work when using PVA glue, not that anyone dislikes those guitars that were built with it, the view is still great.

[Tim McKnight]

When I cook a fresh batch of HHG its done inside of a quart Ball Mason jar in a 145*F hot water bath double boiler. After its cooked then its poured into 2 ounce plastic squeeze bottles and put into ZipLock Baggies in the freezer. When I need some HHG I grab a bottle and drop it into my 145*F Hot Pot and warm it until the glue is liquid. After use any left over glue at the end of the day goes back into the refrigerator or freezer. I have put the same glue through many cycles of heating to 145* back to the frig or freezer and repeated the same process with the same glue and have never had a bridge glued with HHG lift in my 30+ years of using it this way. Mario Proulx shared his same process with me so I know I'm not alone using it this way.

This glue is in the same category as a food product and as long as it's treated as such and kept from spoiling it will work just fine. I always sniff the glue, before using it, to verify the odor has not soured.

It's my understanding that the danger comes from using HHG that has been cooked above 150* and then the chemical structure of the glue is changed and potentially weakened.

[redir]

I like the little squeeze bottles too. 3 or 4 stainless steel nuts in it weighs it down so it doesn't float in the water bath. With the squeeze bottles closed the water in the glue doesn't come out as easily as an open pot too so it seems to me that it keeps it's consistency a bit more. I like to use a brush with the open pot for doing certain things like tacking down peones but for most applications I like the squeeze bottles. When done with a gluing session they go right back in the refrigerator.