It's hopeless...or, should I practic every song with a metronome?

[stanron]

Originally Posted by KarlK

Should I just practice with a metronomce untill my fingers bleed?

If your timing is out because you are struggling to change chords fast enough then a metronome will not help. At least not yet. If the problem is slow chord changes you should look more closely at what your fingers are doing when you change.

A common fault for beginners is to position fingers in the new chord shape one at a time, using pressure to keep the first finger in place while the next finger or fingers are positioned. The trick to a fast chord change is to be able to get all fingers in position above the strings and place them all down in one go. This takes more control and the practice needed to achieve this starts with you doing very slow chord changes on the simplest chords while observing where you need to move your fingers until they are in the right place so you can put them all down at one. It takes time at first but once you have this control all your chord changes will be easier.

[KarlK]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Still the OP's observation is important. It's when playing really simple rhythms (like this one) that you can tell the pros from the amateurs. The pros are always effortlessly right on it. Relaxed, but precise. (I reckon he could have easily done it with no click track, btw )

It was relatively recently when that observation occurred to me. Obviously I knew pros were always rhythmically tighter than us amateurs, but it was a particular jazz gig some years back that opened my eyes to it. Why do they sound so good, even when playing something really simple and obvious? It's the timing - it's all in the timing. Obviously there's things like dynamics and tone too, but they've got metronomes in their heads.

Yes, this is exactly right.

It is one of the three key components of a truly professional presentation of a song.

--Great singing
--Technical precision on the instrument
--Impeccable timing

It is why professionals can make mistakes in a live performance, and the audience will tolerate it. The reason? The rest of the performance meets those criteria. And some songs WILL be delivered perfectly. In the live performance I linked to, Ryan Adams is off pitch a couple of times. It's OK, because the rest of the song is on.

In contrast, amateurs are "muddy." The singing is off too much....or chord shifts are sloppy...and the timing, well, it's just inconsistent. The shape of the delivery is blurry.

For the pro, the shape of the delivery is sharp -- its contours are "hearable."

[KarlK]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Metronomes can be vicious little things to work with, with their fascist precision, and the fact they're always right.... ... but that's what matters of course.

Our natural sense of time is flexible. It depends on our mood and what's going on around us. We're usually not aware of how it shifts, except when something traumatic happens and we have that impression that things happen "in slow motion". Of course they don't; our adrenalin is just making our brains work faster.

Funny you should use the word "flexible."

In a bit of an experiment, I started the song, and the desktop metronome that's freely available from Seventh String.

http://www.seventhstring.com/metronome/metronome.html

This performance of "Sweet Illusions" seemed to be at a slow tempo, so I experimented with lower ranges, and managed to find the verse and chorus tempo. It was pretty consistently 56-57.

But the transitions abandoned this tempo. The rest after "It's almost gone", marks a pause that creates a new starting point outside the tempo, and the 56-57 is off. And the bridge transition -- "And I ain't got nothin' but love for you now," and its follow on instrument interlude-C, Csus4, D5, Amin - is done at a quicker tempo.

But when he returns to the verse, he is right back on tempo at the 56-57 level.

The whole thing is actually pretty remarkable.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by KarlK

Funny you should use the word "flexible."

In a bit of an experiment, I started the song, and the desktop metronome that's freely available from Seventh String.

http://www.seventhstring.com/metronome/metronome.html

This performance of "Sweet Illusions" seemed to be at a slow tempo, so I experimented with lower ranges, and managed to find the verse and chorus tempo. It was pretty consistently 56-57.

But the transitions abandoned this tempo. The rest after "It's almost gone", marks a pause that creates a new starting point outside the tempo, and the 56-57 is off. And the bridge transition -- "And I ain't got nothin' but love for you now," and its follow on instrument interlude-C, Csus4, D5, Amin - is done at a quicker tempo.

But when he returns to the verse, he is right back on tempo at the 56-57 level.

The whole thing is actually pretty remarkable.

Interesting... No click track then!

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by KarlK

Funny you should use the word "flexible."

In a bit of an experiment, I started the song, and the desktop metronome that's freely available from Seventh String.

http://www.seventhstring.com/metronome/metronome.html

This performance of "Sweet Illusions" seemed to be at a slow tempo, so I experimented with lower ranges, and managed to find the verse and chorus tempo. It was pretty consistently 56-57.

But the transitions abandoned this tempo. The rest after "It's almost gone", marks a pause that creates a new starting point outside the tempo, and the 56-57 is off. And the bridge transition -- "And I ain't got nothin' but love for you now," and its follow on instrument interlude-C, Csus4, D5, Amin - is done at a quicker tempo.

But when he returns to the verse, he is right back on tempo at the 56-57 level.

The whole thing is actually pretty remarkable.

Who knows what happened in the studio?

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by stanron

If your timing is out because you are struggling to change chords fast enough then a metronome will not help. At least not yet. If the problem is slow chord changes you should look more closely at what your fingers are doing when you change.

A common fault for beginners is to position fingers in the new chord shape one at a time, using pressure to keep the first finger in place while the next finger or fingers are positioned. The trick to a fast chord change is to be able to get all fingers in position above the strings and place them all down in one go. This takes more control and the practice needed to achieve this starts with you doing very slow chord changes on the simplest chords while observing where you need to move your fingers until they are in the right place so you can put them all down at one. It takes time at first but once you have this control all your chord changes will be easier.

Well I agree that it should be practiced slowly BUT why without a metronome?

[stanron]

Originally Posted by Paikon

Well I agree that you should practice slowly BUT you can do it with a metronome, why not?

I was thinking of the kind of practice which is so slow that it won't fit into any kind of time frame. After it has been done for a while and it has begun to get results and then a metronome could be used.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by stanron

I was thinking of the kind of practice which is so slow that it won't fit into any kind of time frame. After it has been done for a while and it has begun to get results and then a metronome could be used.

I know, and of course anyone could disagree with it , that in slow speed is where the metronome is extremely useful.

[Fruitloop]

I would also add to everything that's been said here that practice just the chord changes first and get them solid. Ignore the rhythm until you get that really tight. Slowly start adding an extra up-strum, as you get that down really tight add some more strums. The changes should be rock solid and right on beat to make it work, they are the foundation.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Who knows what happened in the studio?

Now you're just spoiling all the magic....

[KarlK]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Who knows what happened in the studio?

Well, supposedly, Adams has forsworn all things digital when it comes to recording, though of course you can do some -- ahem -- "modifications" off of analog recordings.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some vocal/guitar mixing to get a sharper definition and distribution, but I also wouldn't be surprised if, in terms of tempo, this is exactly what he delivered. If you watch some of the videos of his solo acoustic performances, you can see that his timing is almost always spot on.