COVID-19 (Cont'd #8)

[HodgdonExtreme]

Apologies, I thought I was making an apt analogy.

I'll butt-out, now.

Now back to your regular programming...

Sorry again.

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

As I have stated in a number of posts, it’s because of people being told something by “experts” and having it turn out to be completely bogus or over-hyped.
This has happened so many times and with regard to so many different things in the past it’s practically uncountable.
There is a group of people who aren’t listening anymore.
I really don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that.
You continue to have trust and faith...those folks don’t.
Nothing baffling about why that is...in my opinion.
BTW, I don’t agree with a total lack of trust, but I’m definitely more of a skeptic than I used to be.

I understand your point and agree that people tend to shut down sources of information that routinely prove false or unreliable. However, IMO, people are selective and typically believe “something.”

Pew Research Center just released this report today —

https://www.journalism.org/2020/06/2...covid-19-news/

[Dirk Hofman]

As I’ve said and the chart illuminates, people reject expertise when it conflicts with their ideology. Then they try to make up legitimate reasons for doing so. Transparent and obvious.

[jeanray1113]

Originally Posted by Haasome

I’m not trying to stir the pot, but one thing I don’t understand is why there is any question about the legality of instituting a mandate. People can’t have a swimming pool (on there own property!) without surrounding it with a mask — a 4-foot tall fence. Virtually everyone is on board with that mandate.

YES! Individual freedom is not absolute -unless you own a private island! And wearing a mask in the midst of a pandemic is such a small thing to be asked to do, but one that makes a real difference.

[jeanray1113]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

As I’ve said and the chart illuminates, people reject expertise when it conflicts with their ideology. Then they try to make up legitimate reasons for doing so. Transparent and obvious.

So true. This is a major source of real pain for me at this time. I am 66, in good health, and fit, effectively younger than my chronological age. My risk is probably lower than many my age and younger. However, I choose to be careful. Since March, my boyfriend and I have limited our outings to grocery shopping, medical appointments, garden centers/nurseries, and restaurant take out. We always wear masks and are careful to maintain distance. Nurseries seem pretty safe since you’re outdoors. CA has “opened up”but we haven’t felt comfortable dining in restaurants, going to malls, gyms, etc.

However, my sister, who lives nearby and with whom I’ve always had a close relationship, has subscribed to the view that the pandemic is an exaggerated risk. She and my brother in law have been to restaurants several times in the past couple of weeks. Her best friend shares her views and they frequently go places together. Bottom line is all this means I don’t feel comfortable being around my sister and I worry about her well being. Talking to her really has no effect— she cites all the sources that support her behavior.

One thing that a lot of people don’t get and don’t factor in to their risk assessment is that, it’s not just the death rate we need to concern ourselves with. Even people who aren’t sick enough to be hospitalized are often sick for weeks and have a risk of permanent lung damage. Those who are sick enough to be hospitalized are at high risk of permanent lung damage, as well as damage to other organs. They may need months of rehab. They may never return to their previous level of functioning. It is not the flu.

So, as much as I hate it, I will continue to distance myself from my sister. I don’t know what else to do.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

If a person is so nieve as to not understand the eb and flow of the information of expert's and the news media then I can't see how they can believe or trust anyone about anything at anytime. Their personal communication standards and reactions are less than a child's. This is why I am suspect of the "you can't believe anybody " argument. Obviously they have to believe somethings from somebody to have opinions. It's a circular reasoning argument.

It seems you are suspect because you apparently perceive a hidden agenda here. Is that observation correct?
I note you categorize this group in a less than flattering manner. That’s interesting.
I submit that a “lack of trust“ doesn’t mean lack of maturity or communication standards.
“You can’t believe anybody” isn’t an argument, it’s a position based on personal experiences. I don’t find that suspect at all.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

It seems you are suspect because you apparently perceive a hidden agenda here. Is that observation correct?
I note you categorize this group in a less than flattering manner. That’s interesting.
I submit that a “lack of trust“ doesn’t mean lack of maturity or communication standards.
“You can’t believe anybody” isn’t an argument, it’s a position based on personal experiences. I don’t find that suspect at all.

Are you overlooking my questions to you? I hope not.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

Are you overlooking my questions to you? I hope not.

No I’m not.
My last post to Mr. Jelly is the best answer I have.
I don’t know how else to put it. It’s a lack of trust and many people have become totally cynical.
I just heard it again from a handful of folks at my chiropractor's office In the waiting room this morning. There were six people in there and they all said the they do not trust what they are being told because they have experienced B.S. for years from all kinds of experts.

Here’s one small example from back in the seventies:
“ Bacon contains cancer-causing nitrites.”
I could give you a list adfinitum of this kind of stuff that turned out to be nonsense based on “studies”.

Honestly man, lots of folks are just plain jaded. First they are told one thing and then later, they’re told never mind what we said last year, we found out through another “study” that wasn’t true.
I’m frustrated that you don’t understand that.
Maybe if we were able to speak in person we could understand each other better because I could go into greater detail.
BTW, why don’t you ask some people yourself if they are all “buying in” to the “experts” and if not, why not?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Honestly man, lots of folks are just plain jaded. First they are told one thing and then later, they’re told never mind what we said last year, we found out through another “study” that wasn’t true.
I’m frustrated that you don’t understand that.
Maybe if we were able to speak in person we could understand each other better because I could go into greater detail.
BTW, why don’t you ask some people yourself if they are all “buying in” to the “experts” and if not, why not?

I don't think anyone here does not understand that people get frustrated when the information or "expert advice" changes, or as I stated before people getting uncomfortable with the uncertainty of that. .

IMO That is not the issue.
The issue is people taking the position that "you can't trust anybody" which is emotion based, and frankly a prime example of using a negative type of "glittering generality" as a foundational basis for forming a perspective. Which is not objective, reasoned, or valid. It may be quite human but it is not a reasoned perspective .

I'll say it again the fact that the science changes with increased study and information is it's strength, and not a good reason to simply reject it.

Back to how this might apply to the OP

The mask issue seems to keep coming up but here is the reasoned reality. (NOTE this applies only to the WHO, the CDC has advised wearing masks from early on)

June 8, 2020 -- The World Health Organization has changed its stance on wearing face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic.People over 60 and people with underlying medical conditions should wear a medical-grade mask when they’re in public and cannot socially distance, the WHO said. The general public should wear a three-layer fabric mask in those situations.

The WHO also updated their advice for medical workers, saying all of them should always wear a medical mask while in clinical areas, not just people working with COVID-19 patients.


(Here is the evolvement of change that people "choose" to get emotional about )

The organization had previously said there wasn’t enough medical evidence to support members of the public wearing a mask, unless they were sick or around people with the coronavirus. The widespread wearing of masks might lead to a mask shortage for medical workers and create a false sense of security in the public, WHO officials had said.

None of the the change in the above advise is remotely a good "reason" to ignore it outright. Again if people choose to be frustrated by this and ignore it that pure emotion, not reason .

[Neil K Walk]

I'm listening to the local sports radio station discuss MLB spring training and what NFL home games are going to be like - yet OTOH there are reports of widespread outbreaks in training facilities in MLB. Then I heard of 14 players in Kansas State testing positive and I'm thinking "talk about counting your chickens before they're hatched!"

Here in my county 109 new cases were reported yesterday. Bars are closing effective 5pm this afternoon and restaurants will be prohibited from selling alcoholic beverages. I wonder what they're doing down in Margaritaville in Key West?

PS: I'm hearing rumors that people are hoping to get sick so that they can contribute to the herd immunity. These are certainly "interesting" times.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I don't think anyone here does not understand that people get frustrated when the information or "expert advice" changes, or as I stated before people getting uncomfortable with the uncertainty of that. .

IMO That is not the issue.
The issue is people taking the position that "you can't trust anybody" which is emotion based, and frankly a prime example of using a negative type of "glittering generality" as a foundational basis for forming a perspective. Which is not objective, reasoned, or valid. It may be quite human but it is not a reasoned perspective .

I'll say it again the fact that the science changes with increased study and information is it's strength, and not a good reason to simply reject it.

.

You’re correct but guess what? Never once did I try to rationalize or justify the phenomena to any one on here.
I know it might not be a good reason to you...it’s reason enough for them.
I said it is the way it’s lot of people feel and I explained why. I plainly said it isn’t just based on the here and now. It’s a fact. You guys keep saying it doesn’t make sense, I know that and I never said otherwise.

BTW, the folks I mentioned at the chiropractors office this morning are not interested in hearing from the WHO or the CDC anymore. They don’t trust them. That info came unsolicited in conversation.
Seriously, go out and ask some people what they think of the experts, any experts.
You might be surprised that a lot of people have tuned them out.
That’s very sad indeed, but I have a lot of empathy for them.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

You’re correct but guess what? Never once did I try to rationalize or justify the phenomena to any one on here.
I know it might not be a good reason to you...it’s reason enough for them.
I said it is the way it’s lot of people feel and I explained why. I plainly said it isn’t just based on the here and now. It’s a fact. You guys keep saying it doesn’t make sense, I know that and I never said otherwise.

BTW, the folks I mentioned at the chiropractors office this morning are not interested in hearing from the WHO or the CDC anymore. They don’t trust them. That info came unsolicited in conversation.
Seriously, go out and ask some people what they think of the experts, any experts.
You might be surprised that a lot of people have tuned them out.
That’s very sad indeed, but I have a lot of empathy for them.

Thanks for your replies.

I have empathy for them, as well.

And a deep sadness about where such tendencies lead us (even if we are lucky enough to dodge bullets regarding the coronavirus, which does not appear to be the case).

Thanks again.

[Neil K Walk]

Personally, I enjoy staying home and spending more time with my family and laughing in bewilderment at the videos of the "Kens and Karens" who are both over- and under-reacting to the many facets of this crisis.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

Thanks for your replies.

I have empathy for them, as well.

And a deep sadness about where such tendencies lead us (even if we are lucky enough to dodge bullets regarding the coronavirus, which does not appear to be the case).

Thanks again.

All of this is symptomatic of many in our country who have lost faith in a lot of things. As we move forward, I can’t help but wonder if we will ever regain some semblance of mutual respect. It seems the harder people are pushed the harder they push back. Maybe some of us are just tired of being pushed.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

No I’m not.
My last post to Mr. Jelly is the best answer I have.
I don’t know how else to put it. It’s a lack of trust and many people have become totally cynical.
I just heard it again from a handful of folks at my chiropractor's office In the waiting room this morning. There were six people in there and they all said the they do not trust what they are being told because they have experienced B.S. for years from all kinds of experts.

Here’s one small example from back in the seventies:
“ Bacon contains cancer-causing nitrites.”
I could give you a list adfinitum of this kind of stuff that turned out to be nonsense based on “studies”.

Honestly man, lots of folks are just plain jaded. First they are told one thing and then later, they’re told never mind what we said last year, we found out through another “study” that wasn’t true.
I’m frustrated that you don’t understand that.
Maybe if we were able to speak in person we could understand each other better because I could go into greater detail.
BTW, why don’t you ask some people yourself if they are all “buying in” to the “experts” and if not, why not?

I have asked, and probably will continue to do so. Just like I ask people about most large scale generalizations they make. Occasionally, someone realizes that they have over-generalized, either treating a large class of people (“experts”, people who live in a particular state, people who hail from a particular country, etc, etc. Note that I am trying to avoid the most charged examples of generalizations) as if they do not differ very much, or treating a few facts as if they apply to every (or nearly every) instance where the facts might (but might not) apply. But most continue to insist that their generalizations are facts, are completely warranted, and do not lead to important distortions of perspective.

It seems that the generalizations that folks are pretty willing to examine and revise are the ones they hold about themselves and that make them unhappy. And even then, there can be reluctance.