Very expensive guitars: should run-out be tolerated? - Page 4

Tim McKnight · #46 11-05-2012, 08:14 AM

BTW, [not meaning to veer this too far off topic] but run-out can also play an aesthetic part in back and sides as well as tops. Its just not as noticeable to the untrained eye.

stratokatsu · #47 11-05-2012, 09:48 AM

This is interesting and I have to say, I've enjoyed reading the whole thread. It got me curious about mine and not seeing anything readily apparent, I decided to see if I could bring out a display of it on a bunch of guitars from my collection.

A few minutes ago, I tried to photograph all my acoustic guitar tops. Keep in mind I no longer buy expensive guitars, a Taylor 210e or Martin DRS2 being the most expensive of the bunch all the way down to a cheap $140 Epi 12 string and a $350 Alvarez baritone.

Just looking at them around the room, none appear to show any consequential runout. I know it usually shows up more when a picture is taken across the top at an angle with flash, so I tried that, but I couldn't make anything show up. On the Alvarez top, more than any other, I see the seam, but I don't see the lighter/darker colors you would typically see looking into the grain on a top with runout.

The worst I think I've seen was on an Epiphone Les Paul Standard I saw at my local GC. It was a brown sunburst finish and the top looked like the two sides were finished by 2 different people on 2 different days with 2 different die lots. I suspect they will have that guitar a long, long time.

I guess the question that forms in my head is, do cheaper guitar tops get treated in some way to keep down the appearance of runout?

Tim McKnight · #48 11-05-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratokatsu

I know it usually shows up more when a picture is taken across the top at an angle with flash, so I tried that, but I couldn't make anything show up.

Try taking the picture head on, not at an angle. That is where you are most likely to see RO.

ChuckS · #49 11-05-2012, 11:17 AM

I doubt I will ever spend $25K on a guitar, but to answer the original question: I would most likely be ok with some level of visible runout. It would all depend on what was making the instrument special enough to me to want it that much. If the luthier's work was selling at that price, and if it was worth that to me, and I had the means to buy it, then I certainly wouldn't be telling the luthier what to use for criteria for the top wood selection.

I'd consider minimal runout (even if visible under light after finishing) down on my list of 'wants and concerns'. There are also other things that might make a top special (above and beyond long grain stiffness, density, long to cross grain stiffness ratio, etc). As an example, on the guitar that is currently being built for me, the luthier selected an Adi top with some 'vertical striping' figure (not talking about coloration of growth rings here); some have referred to this as a ribbon figure, or interlocking grain, in these unique Adirondack tops. From my understanding, this is from a varying twist in the trees growth; a varying runout throughout the top. The builder felt the top had the correct stiffness, stiffness ratio, and density for my guitar and also felt tops with this type of figure were special in tone and aesthetics. When he said it was the best Adi top is his shop and he had it in his shop more than 10 years I felt very happy it was offered to me; its runout seems to be a part of what is making it special.

mikealpine · #50 11-05-2012, 11:51 AM

I will have a build in progress toward the end of 2013. The top is going to be Carpathian, which I wanted due to the creamy, smooth nature of that wood. I was asked if there was anything specific I wanted, and I gave my preferences, providing the builder, Joel Stehr, felt he could deliver the sound I am hoping for. Had he said that he had something he felt was better, I would have gone with that, and if that meant the top had some kind of "figuring" due to runout, I would hope that my trust in the builder was well-placed, and that he was offering me the best wood he could use to get me the sound qualities I am hoping for. Until this thread I hadn't really heard of runout, and while now a bit educated, I am still placing faith in Joel and that he will deliver a guitar that will last, will sound awesome and look beautiful. If that makes sense.

riorider · #51 11-05-2012, 11:59 AM

As a customer - not an experienced woodworker let alone a luthier - I'm with Juston and Matt and others who basically say "depend on your luthier".

The first handbuilt I bought was a Mike Baranik CX with a beautiful top. JasonA had spec'd that top - in fact had picked it out of a large stash - because he visually wanted no runout. And I'm aware of Tim's engineering approach to testing, finding that there is a measurable issue with RO and stiffness.

But - all that aside - I've seen many examples of guitars made by top builders which had runout, and I presume the builder made that decision with full knowledge and purposefully - that the particular top set would end up on a guitar on which they were proud to put their name. A picture of an example is below - two of Kevin Ryan's guitars owned by a forum member, in which the light for that photograph really brought out the RO.

My favorite spruce top to date is a blue spruce on a Baranik - it is imperfect visually (small variations in grain - not really bear claw) but is a very fantastic sounding top - crystalline highs is how I've thought of it. So - while that is close to my most expensive guitar, the tonal qualities were more important than finding a visually perfect top.

Cheers,

Phil

Ryans:

Baranik CX (German):

Baranik Meridian w/ Blue Spruce:

Closeup of the blue spruce, showing both RO and some of the grain variation:

justonwo · #52 11-05-2012, 01:57 PM

I guess I still have the question, just out of curiosity . . . how many degrees of runout before you can observe a reduction in strength? How many degrees of runout before you observe a visual effect?

Is it possible, in other words, that some tops where runout appears really only have 2 or 3 degrees? And that such a small level of runout has a negligible effect on the resulting strength?

Bluemonk · #53 11-05-2012, 03:06 PM

I dunno. That Baranik blue spruce top looks pretty darn nice to me. Maybe I'm just a cheap date.

Quote:

Originally Posted by riorider

My favorite spruce top to date is a blue spruce on a Baranik - it is imperfect visually (small variations in grain - not really bear claw) but is a very fantastic sounding top - crystalline highs is how I've thought of it. So - while that is close to my most expensive guitar, the tonal qualities were more important than finding a visually perfect top.

Cheers,

Phil

Baranik CX (German):

Baranik Meridian w/ Blue Spruce:

Closeup of the blue spruce, showing both RO and some of the grain variation:

Mark Hatcher · #54 11-05-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justonwo

I guess I still have the question, just out of curiosity . . . how many degrees of runout before you can observe a reduction in strength? How many degrees of runout before you observe a visual effect?

Is it possible, in other words, that some tops where runout appears really only have 2 or 3 degrees? And that such a small level of runout has a negligible effect on the resulting strength?

I think for a little perspective here we should all know the long cells that make up the grain are only between 1/25th and 1/3rd of an inch long. I would imagine anything under 10% RO would not have any measureable loss in stiffness. I think this is really a cosmetic only discussion if RO angle is within reason.

Mark

Kent Chasson · #55 11-05-2012, 03:16 PM

Maybe I'm under-thinking this but this is how I see it....

It's never wise to use your eyes to determine tone.

If you don't like the look of runout, don't buy the guitar.

If you are commissioning an upper tier custom guitar (or any custom guitar), you should work with a builder you trust.

If you commission a custom guitar and are opposed to visible runout, have a conversation with the builder before you start. I'd bet the vast majority will work with you for a reasonable or no up-charge.

Jimbolaya · #56 11-05-2012, 03:25 PM

I don't think it's an issue.
For construction wood, the building code says that a screw into the end grain is worth 75% of a screw into the side grain. This is for building material, which does have a lot of factors of safety, but it give an idea of the strength difference. And the strength is graduated based on the angle. If the run out is 5% angle the strength difference is minimal.
-Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by justonwo

I guess I still have the question, just out of curiosity . . . how many degrees of runout before you can observe a reduction in strength? How many degrees of runout before you observe a visual effect?

Is it possible, in other words, that some tops where runout appears really only have 2 or 3 degrees? And that such a small level of runout has a negligible effect on the resulting strength?

mr. beaumont · #57 11-05-2012, 03:36 PM

After reading this thread, I still don't even know what runout is...nor do I care.

Just one player's opinion...but I'm guessing there's plenty out there who feel the same.

JoeCharter · #58 11-05-2012, 03:42 PM

Some people care about run-out, some people don't.

As long as everyone treats the issue respectfully, who cares.

As for the issue being futile and having no impact on sound and structural integrity, and some insinuations that people who care about run-out aren't knowledgeable enough to be opinionated, I do find such comments intriguing coming from a community that values fancy rosettes, fine inlay work and the latest in flexible purfling.

Now, those have a huge impact on sound.

peteom · #59 11-05-2012, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

It is not always apparent until the finish goes on that there will be visible run out.

There is a big difference between visible run out and any actual structural issue.

ALL wood has run out.

While I absolutely believe these 3 statements are true and further, contain actual wisdom, knowledgeable forum denizens will take exception to them.

Great post, thank you!

s2y · #60 11-05-2012, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

After reading this thread, I still don't even know what runout is...nor do I care.

Just one player's opinion...but I'm guessing there's plenty out there who feel the same.

I had to look it up. Even while reading it, I didn't really seem to care. I suppose I might care if I'm buying a $25k guitar. I'm not buying a $25k guitar.