Composite Acoustics

[stoney]

Just a note of technical interest; comparing composites with plastics is not valid. I believe most folks are really not interested in the difference, but the term "plastic" seems to have a negative connotation, so it is being used to give a truly false impression of how composite products, including guitars, are built. Worse, it gives a false impression of what one can expect tonally and structurally from a carbon composite instrument.

For those interested, a google search will turn up lots of good technical information about carbon composite materials. A little bit of accurate information can go a long way toward understanding why this material, in the hands of skilled builders, is a valid and, in some cases (depending on one's goals), a superior material for some musical applications.

Lastly, don't be misled by the plastics comparison when it comes to how carbon composite instruments are made. There is more hands-on work in my CA guitar than in any guitar I've owned, including my Gibsons and Taylors. And, according to the reports of several friends who have visited the Martin factory the same is true. Frankly, I don't really care. I understand the allure and benefits of boutique instruments and love the look, feel, and tonal options available. However, when it comes to getting a very good instrument in to the hands of more people at an affordable price, I'll take manufacturing and materials innovations any day. This begs the question of "What is the measure of a good instrument?" Well, if carbon composite is good enough for Yo Yo Ma, it is certainly good enough for me. For those who have more discerning musical ears than does Yo Yo, God bless you.

All typical disclaimers apply. Your mileage may vary. Opinions of the writer do not necessarily reflect the opinions of any rational persons alive of dead. All similarities of the writer to an actual musician are completely accidental.

Peace.

ST

[Carbonius]

I find it funny that some have said on this forum how a composite guitar is not made by a luthier who has tapped and shaped and given incredible detail to every single aspect of it, yet the guitars they own were not made this way either for the most part.

Every company settles on a way of doing things. They have their way of bracing, body shaping, etc., then they reproduce this. Some guys who made comments like the above on this forum had guitars that used machines in their production for various steps. Is there a guy out there who gets rough lumber and entirely shapes a guitar from scratch?? Every single aspect?? Not one machine?? Maybe, and if the guitar is any good it would be a fortune for all of the hours put into it!! That luthier would most likely go bankrupt due to lack of sales for the price needed to offset the hours put in (or he'd be rich!!). It is simple business. Guy needs to make a living doing what he loves, guy finds a way to cut corners without cutting quality and perhaps increasing consistancy AND productivity which equals a reduction in sales price.

Just like companies use molds to cut out MANY parts for consistancy and time saving factors, composite guitars do the same. They just use more machines to man ratio than the other brands. The guitar was designed by a luthier who must love what he does to put his neck out this far!!

I too love the look and tone of different woods and even smell (mmmmm CEDAR!!!). I ain't complaining about that line of thinking. My beef is when someone puts one way of doing things down when they themselves endorse these methods to varying degrees with the instruments they play.

So the issue is...how pure (non-machine) is your guitar, not is it pure. Sounds more like a religious point of contention.

For those of you that can afford to own a pure hand made guitar that has been tapped and shaped and made exactly to your specs in every sense...good for you!! You must have worked very hard to be able to afford that. I hope to join you someday and own a guitar that was made for just me .

Final note: I have never, nor will I ever buy a guitar based on smell. I love cedar, but I could go buy a slab and sniff to my nasely content. When I pick up a guitar, I want my ears to be content.

[stoney]

Great post, Elliot.

BTW; I choose by taste...

[Paje]

microscopic images

Carbon fiber:


Spruce:


A local shop carries the CA guitars and I'm interested to check them out, more out of curiosity than intent to purchase. Will do so soon.

I do have a laminate carbon fiber (& maple) double-bass with which I've been quite pleased:
(I've a 6-string model)

"The body and neck employ a unique laminating process combining 27 alternate thin layers of maple (for the feel and warmth of wood), and graphite fibers (for brilliance, consistent sustain, and stability) adhered in an epoxy matrix. The result: remarkable strength & tonal brilliance."

[spkline]

Maybe yo should visit the CA web page and see how they're made. It has very little to do with a mold, more of an NC machine.

Originally Posted by Rich G

I have to agree with this sentiment totally. Making composite guitars is not luthiery, so to speak, it's building molds for bodies, bracing, necks, etc. Pouring some kind of stuff into the mold, throw it on the line and let the machines do their work. Just my impression of the whole thing. Sort of reminds me of the old arguments about the large factory guitars versus the small shop or individual builder instruments, but taking it one more step further away from the natural world, the natural experience. I guess you can make a good argument that using composites will actually preserve nature. Hmmm. Unless of course they're make from people.

[Poetmonk]

Originally Posted by spkline

Maybe yo should visit the CA web page and see how they're made. It has very little to do with a mold, more of an NC machine.

I see on photos 3 and 4 on the website ladies laying out carbon fiber to be made into a guitar. Then on photo 5 they show the metal "plug" to make the mold of the specific shape of a guitar. Photo 6 shows the mold. Photo 7 shows the big oven to "cure" (i like to say melt) the guitars at 600 degrees. Besides the two ladies laying out the fiber and a guy spraying the finish and a guy buffing the guitar i didn't see much "hands on" luthiery. So they are punched or pressed in a mold and heated. I have to say i didn't see any sawdust or "chisel wood curls" in the factory, that place was clean. Like they said on the website, i was waiting for Darth Vader to show up. But if people love the guitars, that's all that matters. http://www.compositeacoustics.com/gallery.html

[Rich G]

Originally Posted by stoney

Well, if carbon composite is good enough for Yo Yo Ma, it is certainly good enough for me. For those who have more discerning musical ears than does Yo Yo, God bless you.

Peace.

ST

Even Esteban uses a wood guitar (though be it plywood)

[Hambone]

I played a CA X a couple of weeks ago and I thought it was a magnificent guitar.

Balanced, loud, easy to access electronics, fast neck, low action.... I was astounded at how good it sounded and played.

[Chazmo]

Hey, Page, do you have more pics of that bass? Wow, that's cool!

[Paje]

Originally Posted by Chazmo

Hey, Page, do you have more pics of that bass? Wow, that's cool!

Thx. Check it, & several other similarly made instruments, here ~> http://www.nedsteinberger.com/

[laughingskunk]

I just have to say I love all types of guitars. I have a handbuilt that probably had more human hand contact than about anyone. The gentleman does not and can not afford a CNC machine. He does pick and sometimes cut his own lumber at his own mill. Because of the way he does things, and owns most of the things he needs to build guitars, he is able to charge a way beyond reasonable price. Think less than a Martin d-15. So it is possible to get a handbuilt guitar for a very reasonable price if you look for it. I also own a CA Bluegrass performer. I got it from Elderly before the shop was closed and they retooled. The price was also exceptional-not sure if could afford them now. If I had to not sure which guitar would pick as my one and only. I do know my Bluegrass is an exceptional sounding guitar.

[dfrivers]

Photo 7 shows the big oven to "cure" (i like to say melt) the guitars at 600 degrees

Actually, Poetmonk, the term "melt" is incorrect. The reason for putting the carbon fiber in an oven is not to melt the carbon fiber, but to cure the resin which holds the carbon fiber in it's desired shape. These resins can be applied to dry carbon fiber cloth, as with the CA guitars, or the cloth can be pre-impregnated with resin.

I spent 8 years in the fishing industry, building carbon fiber flyrods for fresh and saltwater fishing. Originally, these flyrods were built with bamboo. When fiberglass (and later carbon fiber) came along, they were met with much resistance. Tradition is a tough thing to overcome. The attributes of carbon fiber (consistency, reliability, light weight, and performance) was not enough to sway the purists. Eventually, even the majority of the die-in-the-wool bamboo purists had to relent when the price of graphite flyrods started to drop. Today, you can get a top quality carbon fiber flyrod for one quarter of the price of a bamboo rod.

I betcha that if CA sold guitars for $500, most of us would have at least a few of them at our fingertips. I do not see that happening anytime soon. I received a DVD from the nice folks at Artisan Guitars, that showed how these guitars are made. I am convinced that these guitars are very well made by craftsmen (actually many are craftswomen!). There is a lot of hand labor involved. Not less labor than a wood guitar, just different labor.

I have played one of these guitars, and they sound wonderful. Whether you love them or not, it's hard not to be impressed by the sound and playability. I love the variety of different guitars and love to play different manufacturer's products. They don't all have to be wood. Thank goodness we don't ALL have to play a Martin D-28. That would be boring!

Dave