Froggy Bottom Questions

[dneal]

For the OP - Here's a link to a post in my NGD thread after I bought my L. There are four clips of comparison between the L (Mahogany and Adirondack) and the H12 (Rosewood and Adirondack). Apologies in advance for the mediocre playing and recording, but you can still get an idea of the general tone; and that the differences are subtle, which is to say that Frogs sound like Frogs.

LINK

[asobi]

Originally Posted by dneal

For the OP - Here's a link to a post in my NGD thread after I bought my L. There are four clips of comparison between the L (Mahogany and Adirondack) and the H12 (Rosewood and Adirondack). Apologies in advance for the mediocre playing and recording, but you can still get an idea of the general tone; and that the differences are subtle, which is to say that Frogs sound like Frogs.

LINK

Oh my goodness, thank you, dneal! You play beautifully, no mea culpa needed, sir. Super useful. You're right both the L and the H12 have the family sound. One could tell H12 has a greater harmonic decay and overtones which I seek. For example, when you let a chord ring in the "fingerpick" sound samples at around 0:10 mark. With the H12, the reverberation and the harmonics & overtones are richer, more complex. I love how the L gets right to the heart of the matter unambiguously in both clips.

Really appreciate you sharing these clips - a HUGE help, you rock.

[handers]

Originally Posted by latestyle

Curiosity leading to a deranged evening brainstorm session, asking for a friend Let's say he has a custom OM in Braz RW in the works as well as an L-00 type in Mahogany, both due for delivery well in the future (2023 or 2024). To occupy the next few years, he just bought a Collings Small Jumbo in Koa, which fills out out the stable as a larger-sized guitar.

He's now beginning to think about mixing in a smaller guitar with the SJ in his daily guitar diet until his custom OM and L-00 arrive in 2023. Given what he has in the hopper with a luthier, he'd likely either investigate a guitar sized between 00 and OM, or potentially smaller than 00.

He began investigating Froggy Bottom guitars and had these questions:

1. H12 vs. H14 besides the obvious difference in # of frets?
2. Anyone try the new R12/R14? Looks like FB version of Nick Lucas... How do they compare vs. A12?
3. P12 - come on, it's really too small, right?

Any thoughts? #askingforafriend

Hi I am an avid Froggy owner and player and would be glad to give my view. I own an H12c, which was custom ordered with 1-7/8" nut and a soft cutaway. It is far an away the most comfortable steel string guitar for my playing style that I have ever played. I am a classically trained player (not professional) and play with classical technique (fingernails, not fingerpicks). The guitar is adir over Ind RW and it has been my go-to guitar since I received in Dec 2000. The voice is clear and present, very balanced across the fretboard. It responds well to a pick for single line and strumming. I have nothing missing in this guitar and have played many 10s of other highend great guitars (Traugott, Tippin, Slobod, Sexauer, Jang, Wingert). There is a balance between warmth and clarity which I find ideal. I have played a few H-14 and find them great too but the bridge on H-14 is a bit closer to the soundhole in a slightly more stiff part of the soundboard so these guitars are very slightly stiffer in my view. Scale length is slightly longer and that also plays into this feel. Some may find my guitar too responsive. Michael knew my playing style and we had discussed what I was hoping for. He nailed it in every way.

I have played one R and one or two A-12 guitars. I cannot offer a coherent comparison. A-12 are lovely small body guitars with remarkably full voice.

The Froggy Parlors are legendary for having incredible presence and voices for a small body guitar. They are built very lightly and offer a voice which can do most things short of what you would ask a jumbo guitar to do. Strumming and fingerstyle are equally strong on these small guitars.

I think your friend's guitars are fine but the difference between those guitars and the Froggys you are asking about have more to do with the Froggy voice than the size/models. Not better but different from other builders like Collings which guitars are also excellent. So I would choose a Froggy not because of the particular model but for the voice that their guitars have.

I find it very hard to express the tone of Froggys so your friend needs to play a few of them. Also, a custom order from Froggy is a great opportunity to have them consider specific tonal or build desires of an individual. This is a great path to a fine guitar.

[asobi]

Handers, I'm listening to your H12 music files right now - your playing is amazing! I'm pretty much leaning toward the H12 BRW with a cursory glance at an enchanting device that is the P12. Mind-boggling. Your background and opinions are super helpful, thank you!

Originally Posted by handers

Hi I am an avid Froggy owner and player and would be glad to give my view. I own an H12c, which was custom ordered with 1-7/8" nut and a soft cutaway. It is far an away the most comfortable steel string guitar for my playing style that I have ever played. I am a classically trained player (not professional) and play with classical technique (fingernails, not fingerpicks). The guitar is adir over Ind RW and it has been my go-to guitar since I received in Dec 2000. The voice is clear and present, very balanced across the fretboard. It responds well to a pick for single line and strumming. I have nothing missing in this guitar and have played many 10s of other highend great guitars (Traugott, Tippin, Slobod, Sexauer, Jang, Wingert). There is a balance between warmth and clarity which I find ideal. I have played a few H-14 and find them great too but the bridge on H-14 is a bit closer to the soundhole in a slightly more stiff part of the soundboard so these guitars are very slightly stiffer in my view. Scale length is slightly longer and that also plays into this feel. Some may find my guitar too responsive. Michael knew my playing style and we had discussed what I was hoping for. He nailed it in every way.

I have played one R and one or two A-12 guitars. I cannot offer a coherent comparison. A-12 are lovely small body guitars with remarkably full voice.

The Froggy Parlors are legendary for having incredible presence and voices for a small body guitar. They are built very lightly and offer a voice which can do most things short of what you would ask a jumbo guitar to do. Strumming and fingerstyle are equally strong on these small guitars.

I think your friend's guitars are fine but the difference between those guitars and the Froggys you are asking about have more to do with the Froggy voice than the size/models. Not better but different from other builders like Collings which guitars are also excellent. So I would choose a Froggy not because of the particular model but for the voice that their guitars have.

I find it very hard to express the tone of Froggys so your friend needs to play a few of them. Also, a custom order from Froggy is a great opportunity to have them consider specific tonal or build desires of an individual. This is a great path to a fine guitar.

[handers]

Thanks for listening.

I highly rec playing both models bf u decide if possible. Then if u can direct custom order u won’t be sorry.

Hans

[usb_chord]

1. H12 vs. H14 besides the obvious difference in # of frets?

Quite a bit of difference in these two. Generally the H-12s will have a "wider" sound. The 14s will have a little more of a direct-ness about them. There are exceptions, but you can typically expect some version of that. The H-14s tend to strum a little better since they throw sound in way that has less blend than the H-12. Clarity is a FB hallmark across the board, though. Also, if comfort/ergonomics are a concern be mindful that although both are "H" the H-12 feels like maybe 10-15% "more guitar" in the lap. That body depth in tandem w/ its length. It's not a small instrument.

2. Anyone try the new R12/R14? Looks like FB version of Nick Lucas... How do they compare vs. A12?

The R-14 and the A-12 are VERY different. The Rs do not have the body depth of a Lucas and are better compared to an L-00. They dont sound THAT much like those either, tho. The R-14 has a very quick response with lots of fundamental. One of the "woodiest" sounding of all their guitars I've played. They CAN be quite dry and punchy in certain wood combinations. Very articulate. Handles pick and fingers equally and generally doesn't mind a heavier attack.

The R-12s are warmer and more diffusive, even in maple. This is similar to what many of the A-12s I've played do, regardless of tonewood combination. A very "pretty" sound. Lush, vibrant, bassy, but not quite "modern" since they retain a good edginess to the attack, if desired and very little compression. Great light touch responsiveness, not the best guitars for pick use

3. P12 - come on, it's really too small, right?

Anyone who can afford nice guitars should have a great P-12 or 14 at some point. Those guitars are utterly remarkable. Very lightly braced with a tiny little bridge. They're built under quite a bit of tension (all FBs are to some extent) and those things just roar.

Usually VERY strong tone outta those things. Lots of volume, amazing "punch" and it's almost guaranteed to have more low-end than you'd expect. Try one with one of Michael's streaky winter growth Adirondack tops with the wide grain. There's nothing like them.

[Yrksman]

I have an H-12 in Braz/Adirondack. Fabulous guitar I’ve been offered good money for but never been the slightest bit interested in selling. One of those guitars that you get excited about just at the thought of picking it up to play.

[asobi]

Originally Posted by usb_chord

...Also, if comfort/ergonomics are a concern be mindful that although both are "H" the H-12 feels like maybe 10-15% "more guitar" in the lap. That body depth in tandem w/ its length. It's not a small instrument...

Anyone who can afford nice guitars should have a great P-12 or 14 at some point. Those guitars are utterly remarkable. Very lightly braced with a tiny little bridge. They're built under quite a bit of tension (all FBs are to some extent) and those things just roar.

Usually VERY strong tone outta those things. Lots of volume, amazing "punch" and it's almost guaranteed to have more low-end than you'd expect. Try one with one of Michael's streaky winter growth Adirondack tops with the wide grain. There's nothing like them.

Thank you for your comments, really really helpful in terms of weighing H12 vs. P12. Your observation that H12 is not small and it's actually "10-15% more guitar on your lap" does give me pause and makes me think whether the more diminutive and ergonic P12, which nonetheless has surprising volume, punch and lushness, could be more suitable? I have an OM on the way, and own an SJ, so I'm not looking for this to be a cannon.

Also curious as to your general views on how the FB "house sound" compares with Borges, Franklin and Olson, seeing that you own them?

Originally Posted by Yrksman

I have an H-12 in Braz/Adirondack. Fabulous guitar I’ve been offered good money for but never been the slightest bit interested in selling. One of those guitars that you get excited about just at the thought of picking it up to play.

Sounds exactly like the kind of instrument I'd love to have!

[Racerbob]

I have both a p-12 and h-12. The size difference is not that noticable. The h-12 is a very comfortable guitar. In fact I find the p-12 more awkward shape for playing sitting compared to the h-12. The short scale and body shape of the p-12 means the left hand is pretty close to the body.

[asobi]

Originally Posted by Racerbob

I have both a p-12 and h-12. The size difference is not that noticable. The h-12 is a very comfortable guitar. In fact I find the p-12 more awkward shape for playing sitting compared to the h-12. The short scale and body shape of the p-12 means the left hand is pretty close to the body.

Thanks for sharing that observation. Is there a noticeable n+1 factor on tonality, impact, dynamics with H12?

[Mocha Joe]

Originally Posted by latestyle

Thanks for sharing that observation. Is there a noticeable n+1 factor on tonality, impact, dynamics with H12?

Not to throw another wrench into the equation but maybe you should consider an M. Bigger sound than the P but the most comfortable of Michael's medium sized guitars IMO. I own an an H12 and an M. Previously owned a C but found myself missing the bigger sound of the H12 and the M. For comfort, the M is hard to beat if you want something with a bigger sound.

[Greyhound]

Sent a PM to you with a solution for your friends dilemma. A nice H-12 at a very good price.

[kiva238]

Originally Posted by Mocha Joe

Not to throw another wrench into the equation but maybe you should consider an M. Bigger sound than the P but the most comfortable of Michael's medium sized guitars IMO. I own an an H12 and an M. . . . . For comfort, the M is hard to beat if you want something with a bigger sound.

I wondered when someone was going to mention the M. It's like a small Jumbo with a huge bass kick and amazing separation. Very comfy on the lap, ears and eyes. Millard really has this unique model down IMHO.

[asobi]

Originally Posted by Mocha Joe

Not to throw another wrench into the equation but maybe you should consider an M. Bigger sound than the P but the most comfortable of Michael's medium sized guitars IMO. I own an an H12 and an M. Previously owned a C but found myself missing the bigger sound of the H12 and the M. For comfort, the M is hard to beat if you want something with a bigger sound.

Thanks, Mocha Joe. Seems like it's about an inch shorter but the same depth - does it make that much of an ergonomic difference? Looks like it's a "mini-K". Given the similar size, what's the difference tonally from the H12?

Originally Posted by kiva238

I wondered when someone was going to mention the M. It's like a small Jumbo with a huge bass kick and amazing separation. Very comfy on the lap, ears and eyes. Millard really has this unique model down IMHO.

This thread only serves to convince me to at least buy the H12, P12 and M, maybe the K and R12, too.

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by latestyle

Thanks, Mocha Joe. Seems like it's about an inch shorter but the same depth - does it make that much of an ergonomic difference? Looks like it's a "mini-K". Given the similar size, what's the difference tonally from the H12?



This thread only serves to convince me to at least buy the H12, P12 and M, maybe the K and R12, too.

I agree, the M is a great guitar model. It’s very close to OM size. It’s upper bout is 1/2” smaller than most OMs, has a 1/2 deeper body , with a curvaceous waist that makes it a dream to play. It’s focused, rich and powerful. But don’t forget to add the 12-fret C to your friend’s list. This little 00 has a great big deep voice and plays with maximum comfort.