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  #1  
Old 08-25-2018, 05:53 AM
Murphy Slaw Murphy Slaw is offline
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Default "10's" or "12's" For Acoustic Duo ?

I'm an old Luddite. Okay, maybe not that bad, I do have an iPhone and an iPad and Bluetooth in the truck.

Me and a friend have done an acoustic cd, working on digital distribution right now. Our p.a. stuff is pretty much left over from the 90's. I have a killer pair of Peavey SP 2's. Which is a 15 and a horn and weighs 3000 lbs.

If we don't go Bose to get out and peddle some of these cd's I'm noticing a lot of you are using 10's for mains in smaller clubs as opposed to 12's. I also notice people are now using powered speakers a lot and wonder why, and about reliability.

I played a lot of bass back in the day, and have a Carvin RB1000 with 10's and they are great. My brain tells me 12's would have bigger sound and better bass than 10's, but those bass rigs always use 10's and my brain is getting up in years.

I read good things about the Bose rigs and we will probably look into those as well, but being old school will likely go full p.a. with monitors but on a far smaller scale than the old Rock days !

Thanks for your opinions.
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Old 08-25-2018, 06:05 AM
varmonter varmonter is offline
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I played top 40 rock and roll back when Pat Benetar
was singing "hit me with you best shot".
I don't miss lugging speakers the size of volkswagons.
My current acoustic band started out with qsc k12s.
We now use k10s. A bit of bass roll off compromise .
But not enough to overcome the bulk and weight
difference. Bulk more than weight. k10s physical
size just makes them easier to schlep.
But we use a small ev sub that covers the electric bass
and some low guitar drop d freqs.

Last edited by varmonter; 08-25-2018 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 08-25-2018, 06:19 AM
lkingston lkingston is offline
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There are three ways to get low frequencies out of speakers: large speaker size, multiple speakers acting as one larger speaker, and bass porting. How do they compare? It depends on how much volume you want. Large woofers and and cabinets with walls of speakers can go really loud, but at the listening volumes I play, a well ported small speaker or two produces plenty of bass.
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Old 08-25-2018, 06:29 AM
Irish Pennant Irish Pennant is offline
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Technology is changing so fast, my current PA is about 6 or 7 years old, my mains are powered and 12". My floor monitor is a scaled down 10" of my mains. I'm beginning to think that they are already obsolete. I use to think that 12" was best suited for acoustic guitar but recently I seen an acoustic gig at a restaurant, they were using tiny little speakers on pole stands and they had a very good sound, the acoustic guitar dynamics were accentuated with plenty of volume. I didn't catch the brand but I could imagine them being Bose or something in that technology niche.
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Old 08-25-2018, 07:06 AM
dspblues dspblues is offline
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We use 2 fishman loudbox performers. Works great. No PA.
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Old 08-25-2018, 08:13 AM
RockerDuck RockerDuck is offline
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Bose is best. 180 degree sound dispersement. Every one in the back and side can hear you and people in front don't need earplugs. I use an L1 compact. I add powered speakers as needed.
I also played in the 70's.
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Old 08-25-2018, 09:00 AM
Guitaurman Guitaurman is offline
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It's a little confusing these days, there are so many options and choices. Then everyone will tell you that their choice is "best." How do we decide? I finally chose to have two different systems to use at the different venues I play at. I will play with a bass player today and he will bring his amp. For outdoor gigs I like my QSC K 10.2 speakers. They are as loud as I ever need to get, clear, very reliable and only weigh 32 lbs. My Yamaha MG10XU mixer is a feather weight. The QSCs are great for vocals and acoustic guitar but not for bass frequencies. It would be easy to get a subwoofer for bass. For indoor gigs I have a Fishman SA330. Again great for guitar and vocals but not for bass unless you opt for the subwoofer. Great sound, very portable, and includes a great mixer in the unit. A lot of guys like Bose, Maui, and Turbosound to name a few. So many choices!
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Old 08-25-2018, 10:43 AM
zhunter zhunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitaurman View Post
It's a little confusing these days, there are so many options and choices. Then everyone will tell you that their choice is "best." How do we decide? I finally chose to have two different systems to use at the different venues I play at. I will play with a bass player today and he will bring his amp. For outdoor gigs I like my QSC K 10.2 speakers. They are as loud as I ever need to get, clear, very reliable and only weigh 32 lbs. My Yamaha MG10XU mixer is a feather weight. The QSCs are great for vocals and acoustic guitar but not for bass frequencies. It would be easy to get a subwoofer for bass. For indoor gigs I have a Fishman SA330. Again great for guitar and vocals but not for bass unless you opt for the subwoofer. Great sound, very portable, and includes a great mixer in the unit. A lot of guys like Bose, Maui, and Turbosound to name a few. So many choices!
If you haven't tried it, run your QSC's on "Ext Sub" setting. It may seem counterintuitive but the bass roll off in that position allows you to push more bass content through the speaker without adding mud. I am usually not a fan of those <100 hz bass frequencies and often roll it off in my recording mixes. This setting helps take care of that in a live context.

hunter
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  #9  
Old 08-25-2018, 11:09 AM
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ljguitar ljguitar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy Slaw View Post
…Thanks for your opinions.
Hi MS

My rig has to accommodate bass (electric and acoustic), acoustic guitar, vocals, and the occasional keyboard…so my 12" two way rig is about the perfect size cabinet. A 12" woofer will handle bass for small/medium small situations (if you feed it enough power) without getting muddy on the bottom. My system has community cabinets (brand) and bring an extra measure of fullness to the bottom end of acoustic guitars with clarity and not mud. My cabinets are passive, and I'm pushing them with 1200 watts of power (at 4 ohms). I like powered speakers, but they usually weigh quite a bit more than the non-powered ones, and I'm nearly 70 years old. I don't lift more than 35 pounds…ever.

Our church had high end QAC 10" two way cabinets, mounted 10 feet above the floor, and aimed to meet in the middle of the congregation about ⅔ of the way back in the room…and they drilled holes through people where the signals crossed. They could not push enough air to do bass without substantial sub-woofing, and totally non-portable. They would not have been a good choice for our acoustic groups. They finally went a line array rig (which is portable if you have 4 roadies to help you break-down and haul-out).

Back in the day Voice-of-the-Theater (15" two way) was the all American dream. And in a room of hundreds of people, they did a respectable job - but the bass player had his own cabinets, and so did the electric guitarist, and the organist had 2 Leslie cabinets. The only things in the PA were the vocals and the trumpet/trombone/sax. With today's music, 15" two/three way cabinets tend to be overly midrange prone and muddy on the bottom end (and weigh WAY too much…more than I want to set atop a pole and boost in the air).

If you want flexibility, I sure like the balance of 12" two way for ability to project and easily cover 300 people and still sound pleasant.

Just my opinions…


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Last edited by ljguitar; 08-25-2018 at 11:21 AM. Reason: added a thought
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Old 08-25-2018, 01:34 PM
GmanJeff GmanJeff is offline
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You may not need more than 8" speakers, like the EV ZxA1 or QSC K8. Very lightweight, small form factor, and can serve as either floor monitors or FOH. They cover the full frequency spectrum for guitars and vocals, but if you want to put a keyboard or bass through FOH you will need more bass extension. A separate sub with these kinds of smaller FOH speakers might be more flexible than 10" or larger speakers if you typically don't need the extra bass extension.

8" speakers won't generally project as far as bigger boxes, but if you perform in environments where their capabilities are appropriate, you may find you prefer the ease of working with them over larger and heavier alternatives.
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Old 08-25-2018, 03:09 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkingston View Post
There are three ways to get low frequencies out of speakers: large speaker size, multiple speakers acting as one larger speaker, and bass porting. How do they compare? It depends on how much volume you want. Large woofers and and cabinets with walls of speakers can go really loud, but at the listening volumes I play, a well ported small speaker or two produces plenty of bass.
As a primarily/once-again electric guitarist cum bass player I've seen the evolution of all of these over the last six decades- my take:
  • Large speaker size: the classic approach to bass amplification as opposed to "octave guitar" (I've yet to hear a single valid reason for tweeters capable of producing tones in the 8kHz+ range in a bass amp, when a typical electric-guitar amp peaks out around 5K - yeah, I used to do the slap-&-pop thing until arthritis got hold of my left thumb - and as I recall Jeff Berlin feels exactly the same way); even at relatively low volume there's still nothing like an old-school 2x15" cab (or W-box in a larger house) to give your E string some real authority - or get things shakin' on the dance floor when you crank it up...
  • Multiple speakers: had its origins in the iconic late-50's tweed Bassman, in practice more of a response to the tendency of the comparatively weak 15" speakers of the day to self-destruct when faced with strong low-end information, and arguably saw its ultimate realization in the original Ampeg SVT (which required two 8x10" cabs to handle the massive power ); while I've heard some good-sounding 2x12"/4x12" cabs, the ubiquitous 4x10" boxes have more of a mid-bass tonality to my ears - great for lending some clarity to a flatwound-equipped Gibson/Epiphone EB-Series bass or quick response for the funk crowd - with tons of output in the second octave but relatively little real fundamental, hence the tendency for many '80s-90s players (especially those who used the then-new 5- and 6-string basses) to pair them with 18" woofers...
  • Bass porting: the secret behind the iconic Ampeg Portaflex tone (arguably the standard by which all bass amp tone is still judged) - founder Everett Hull was an early audiophile and knew a little something about hi-fi speaker design - as well as the current array of ultra-lightweight/high-power class-D combos; while many of these new amps can punch well above their weight in terms of both tone and volume - our bass player's go-to is a Fender Rumble 40 1x10" combo (which can be DI'd to the house if necessary) - the laws of physics are straightforward and immutable, and if you've got any real hands-on experience with large-scale bass amplification you'll never be deceived into believing you're listening to a larger speaker and/or cab (particularly in the lowest frequencies)...
Getting back the the original premise of this post, in view of the above I'd go with a dedicated bass amp with either a 12" or (preferably) 15" speaker - probably one of the new ultra-lightweight combos - for low-end weight, and run a DI to the mains for clarity (low frequencies are essentially non-directional) and coverage...
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Old 08-25-2018, 03:47 PM
Br1ck Br1ck is offline
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When our open mic was coming to the conclusion the venue's tired old 25 year old Peavey mains were a decade past their prime, we experimented by turning the 8" powered monitors toward the audience.They filled the 50 seat room fine, and for the solo or duo acoustic performers that are the norm, they would work well.

But we figured the venue would want more punch for Karaoke night, plus we wanted bands to play through the mains. I talked to four bands, all of which brought their own PA because of the reputation of those old Peaveys.

In the end we bought 15" passive QSCs to hang from the ceiling. They work great for everything. Young bands can come in with pedal boards and sound good, bass included. But I'd not want to schlep 15" cabs around.

I also think vocals sound better with the smaller powered speakers than the average acoustic amp.
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Old 08-25-2018, 07:17 PM
krisls krisls is offline
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I thinks 12's is sort of the default size... but only if you are multiple use, ie solo/duo stuff and band stuff. For solo/ duo work I much prefer 10's or 8's. Sure you lose a bit in the bottom end but that does not matter too much usually. Clarity and spread is more the thing. Not a fan of 15's in general.

I use K's the original 10's and 8's. For me the default is the 10's, especially for noisier pub type settings. enough punch and a decent dispersion pattern to handle. Set above head height and angled down.

But I did a gig recently in a big old clay brick warehouse setting. Lots of open space and alcoves. Set up on the corner edge of the main seating chatting area. For there a pair of the 8's on a fork was ideal. As ever it depends.

If you do ever need to have more bottom end punch a small sub is usually not too heavy to lug these days. Grab a Rock n Roller and go...

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Old 08-25-2018, 08:52 PM
Guitaurman Guitaurman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhunter View Post
If you haven't tried it, run your QSC's on "Ext Sub" setting. It may seem counterintuitive but the bass roll off in that position allows you to push more bass content through the speaker without adding mud. I am usually not a fan of those <100 hz bass frequencies and often roll it off in my recording mixes. This setting helps take care of that in a live context.

hunter
Thanks Hunter I'll give that a try.
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:08 AM
The Kid! The Kid! is offline
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I like 10’s better than 12’s for Acoustic Guitar and Voice. If there are lower frequencies, I’d rather add a sub and crossover.
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