Still tripping over a chord after 40 years!

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

When I got into my high school stage band with its huge book of complicated charts, I ran in a panic to my neighbor Mr. Hansman, the local jazz cat. He said, "Relax, kid. Just hit the root if you can, and a couple more notes that aren't wrong."

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

Big full six note chords are only useful (sometimes) when playing solo. As soon as you start playing with others, the 'full range chord' becomes pretty useless. You find that you are crowding out other instruments, and the overall sound gets congested instead of powerful.

Such important advice, and so seldom given (or if given, ignored).

[Ludere]

Ray, Thank you for this thread. And thanks to all who responded. I am also struggling to efficiently change from open to barre chords and have been discouraged because I finally mastered “clean” barre chords over a year ago ... good to know it’s just a matter of “endeavoring to persevere” ... best of luck in your quest!
Now I’m off to try some of these suggestions ... !

~ Paul

...

[Pitar]

The Bm chord demands more from a player. The usual triads tend to spoil the fretting hand making it a (mentally) lazy participant. Then, enter the Bm and suddenly it becomes apparent that lazy has ruled the roost for many moons. Grab some barre chords and get current with fluidly moving between them.

[Mandobart]

We'd all be better players if we focused on the hours we spend playing, not the years.

Not trying to offend anyone, but I've been involved with and led many song circles, jams and open mics over the years. I've coined a term "permanent beginner." This is someone who has climbed the steep slope from non-musician through novice to being able to get through a few songs keeping the rhythm and chord changes intact. And that's where they stop, for whatever reason. I've had folks like this actually close their eyes and put their hands over their ears when I try to show them a new concept like moveable chords (not barres) or a new to them picking pattern. Maybe you're as good as you're ever going to let yourself be?

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

We'd all be better players if we focused on the hours we spend playing, not the years.

Not trying to offend anyone, but I've been involved with and led many song circles, jams and open mics over the years. I've coined a term "permanent beginner." This is someone who has climbed the steep slope from non-musician through novice to being able to get through a few songs keeping the rhythm and chord changes intact. And that's where they stop, for whatever reason. I've had folks like this actually close their eyes and put their hands over their ears when I try to show them a new concept like moveable chords (not barres) or a new to them picking pattern. Maybe you're as good as you're ever going to let yourself be?

We all have different goals for our playing. I appreciate the point about measuring in hours rather than years. I started in 1977, but basically stopped in the mid / late 80's when other priorities took precedence. In those early years, I just wanted to get good enough to play and sing some songs, to play with other people, mostly on electric, and to have a lot of fun. And meet women. All of those missions were accomplished and I had a blast. And in doing that I got fluent in the basic barre chord shapes, the basic open chords, major and minor pentatonic scales, etc. But I approached electric and acoustic quite differently, tended to do open chords on acoustic and barre chords on electric, without a lot of overlap. So a chord like Bm slipped through the cracks of my acoustic playing, although I easily play it a few different ways on my electrics. And quick transitions between open and barre chords also slipped through the cracks because it rarely mattered for what I was playing in each format.

Barely played at all from the time my first daughter was born in 1987 until I got back into it three years ago. Since then, I've been putting in a lot of time, but in total hours, I'm not a "permanent beginner", but I may be "reasonably happy in mediocrity".

I'm not trying to be the next great virtuoso, but in the past few years I've become a much better rhythm player with the help of a looper, I've expanded my chord vocabulary in ways that matter to what I like to play, various blues shapes like 6ths, 7ths, and 9ths, which are all pretty nice sliding chords. And I'm learning to fingerpick finally, which I've always wanted to do but never had the patience for before.

So, obviously by asking a question like this, I'm not "covering my ears" - I wasn't specifically looking for suggestions, but one of the ones I've gotten in this thread has already proved enormously helpful and I feel I'm on my way to getting past this particular mental/physical block.

But I've already far exceeded the goals I had when I first started playing in my late teens, I've had more fun than I could have imagined, and I continue to now into my 60s. If I can make progress in ways that matter to me, I'll be thrilled with that - I already have and I am. And if there are limits to the directions I want to take that, I guess that falls under "getting as good as I let myself" and that works fine for me. It might or might not for you, but that's on you...

[rpguitar]

If you stopped playing for decades when life took over, then I assume you're trying to improve on things now that "mature" age is a big factor. I can relate: I can no longer keep a repertoire of songs actively in memory the way I could decades ago. I have to re-learn tunes that I already know constantly, which is a pain.

I am lucky to have started playing in 1976, but the difference is I never stopped. Only when traveling or sick, or exceptionally encumbered with chores/errands do I not play on a daily basis. Switching chords is not a problem, but when I try to learn new voicings now they don't always stick in memory - see above aging factor.

BTW, I'm guessing that a Cm is similarly problematic, but you don't find that chord in rock/folk tunes as often, so we're fixated on Bm, which is more common. What about an F#7 (E7 form in position II)? The key to all barre chords is getting the index finger splayed out cleanly and then dropping the other fingers down.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

If you stopped playing for decades when life took over, then I assume you're trying to improve on things now that "mature" age is a big factor. I can relate: I can no longer keep a repertoire of songs actively in memory the way I could decades ago. I have to re-learn tunes that I already know constantly, which is a pain.

I am lucky to have started playing in 1976, but the difference is I never stopped. Only when traveling or sick, or exceptionally encumbered with chores/errands do I not play on a daily basis. Switching chords is not a problem, but when I try to learn new voicings now they don't always stick in memory - see above aging factor.

BTW, I'm guessing that a Cm is similarly problematic, but you don't find that chord in rock/folk tunes as often, so we're fixated on Bm, which is more common. What about an F#7 (E7 form in position II)? The key to all barre chords is getting the index finger splayed out cleanly and then dropping the other fingers down.

Yeah, trying to both learn some new stuff and plug some holes I left leaking when I was playing before I guess. The first many months when I re-started were just trying to get back to the level I'd been at when I stopped many years before, and since then I've been learning new stuff and just enjoying playing. Part of it is just that as I've been playing more and becoming a better rhythm player, more songs are now within my reach to play and sing (not performing, just for enjoyment) which leads to many with chords I've never spent much time on, and most of them fall into place pretty easily since my "base" is getting deeper, but it's just been a reminder of this odd deficit.

And I'll reiterate - I don't have a problem playing barre chords - I probably had a good feel for that before nailing down quite a number of open chords. But I've just never had much need for quick transitions between open and barre chords. As I've noted earlier, I seem to handle getting to the F#m and B fairly quickly from open chords, but once I have to also pull the middle finger into it for the F#M or 7 or the Bm, it slows me way down. So maybe once I nail down this abbreviated 4-note Bm, which I've made progress at in the past couple of days (using one of the suggestions in the thread), I'll go to work on getting to the full barre chords straight from open chords next. I'd imagine the same suggestion will help there as well.

We'll see. It's all been enjoyable. And sometimes I have to take a break from all of this learning and just PLAY, which is ultimately the point...

-Ray

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by raysachs

And sometimes I have to take a break from all of this learning and just PLAY, which is ultimately the point...

Luckily, as long as we are not earning a living from it, the learning, practicing, composing, noodling, improvising, and playing are ALL a distraction from the hustle and demands of life. I am beyond thankful for it all!

[roylor4]

Start playing your regular Am (and Em for that matter) with your pinky, ring & middle finger and the barre Bm will come very quickly.

[Pualee]

I can play songs with just cowboy chords well.

I can play songs with just barre chords well.

But if I play a song with 1st position chords, and add a single barre chord - I have problems if I don't mentally think about it.

The reason is the way I anchor my hand. I play thumb behind the neck if I'm not in first position and thumb wrapped in 1st position. This little difference is enough to throw the barre chords off.

I noticed this and actively try to play thumb behind all the time now.

An exception for me is F barre chord. I have done that for so long in 1st position that I have the transition down. However, playing F major in the 5th position (C shape) drives me nuts, but I'm getting it.

Right now I'm struggling to add some melodic lines between my heavy handed strumming

[rick-slo]

Focus on where your second finger is going to land on the Bm chord and the other fingers will go along for the ride.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Focus on where your second finger is going to land on the Bm chord and the other fingers will go along for the ride.

When this thread first got going and I was thinking about this a bit more (rather than just kind of flailing), I was thinking the same thing. Based on the fact that I seem able to get to the B and F#m barre chords (neither of which involved the second finger) from playing open chords more easily than major chords in the "E" shape or minor chords in the "A" shape (both of which DO involve the middle finger). So I thought that might be the culprit, whether playing full or abbreviated barre chords like the abbreviated version of the Bm I tend to play when I'm mostly playing open chords.

But then a poster named Gene (capefisherman) suggested, based on being a long time guitar teacher and having many students with similar problems, that I just pay attention to what finger or fingers are the last to land on the string when I just try to play the chord instinctively. He suggested that THAT finger is the "problem finger". And then suggested working on getting that finger down FIRST and and letting the other fingers fall into place around it.

So I observed myself trying to play the chords many times and the problem isn't the second / middle finger, is the ring finger and pinky which land on the D and G strings. They seem to land together, but late, and sometimes not accurately. So I've been working for a few days now on getting those two fingers down first and I seem to be making a lot of progress. I'm hesitant to call it a raging success prematurely because there have been other times I thought I had this down and then realized I didn't. But it feels like I'm making actual progress here.

I'm watching my hand for that chord, and I'm thinking about and anticipating the chords way more than I want to be in time, but I'm rarely hesitating or missing anymore. Hopefully, in not too much time, it'll start getting second nature enough that I won't have to keep watching it and I can eventually get to where I just grab it unconsciously like pretty much every other open-ish chord. I'm not there yet, may not be for a while. But I'm getting close to nailing the chord (with whatever amount of thinking and watching I'm still doing) cleanly and quickly enough that I'd just about record stuff with it, rather than always finding work-arounds...

So for now I'm gonna stick with that. But I had the same thought about the middle finger. And if this eventually fails, maybe I'll try that next...

-Ray

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by raysachs

But then a poster named Gene (capefisherman) suggested, based on being a long time guitar teacher and having many students with similar problems, that I just pay attention to what finger or fingers are the last to land on the string when I just try to play the chord instinctively. He suggested that THAT finger is the "problem finger". And then suggested working on getting that finger down FIRST and and letting the other fingers fall into place around it.
-Ray

Well landing fingers at different times could be part of the problem. I land the fingers simultaneously on virtually every chord change.
Most every time the fingers are grouped in position in air on the way to the next chord so that they can land together on the frets.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Well landing fingers at different times could be part of the problem. I land the fingers simultaneously on virtually every chord change.
Most every time the fingers are grouped in position in air on the way to the next chord so that they can land together on the frets.

Well, on chords I play smoothly they land at the same time - I just grab the chord without a thought and all fingers land at the same time unless I play myway into the chord with some sort of hammer on or suspension. But when I was first learning to play it didn’t work that way. At first it was one finger at a time and then two and then eventually they all landed at the same time and it became a barely conscious process. I just somehow never got to that point with this chord. Hopefully, as landing the ring finger and pinky become automatic, the whole chord will fall into place. We’ll see...

[raysachs]

So I started this thread about 2 1/2 weeks ago. And since that time, every time I sit down to play I start with a group of 6-7 songs that heavily feature the Bm chord, trying the method that Gene (Capefisherman) recommended a few pages back. I identified my "problem fingers" as the ring finger and pinky that land on the G and D strings, 4th fret as the problems - they were the last to arrive and often missed their landing(s).

So taking Gene's advice, I've been focusing on putting these two fingers in place first and letting the middle and pointer fingers fall into place. As he suggested, it was awkward at first, but I've been making a LOT of progress with this. After just a very short couple of weeks, I'm nailing the chord about 99% of the time. At first I had to skip singing just to focus on landing the chord. Then it started coming more and more consistently, then more and more in the flow and on time. Now I'm singing and still hitting it pretty much every time.

I'm not at the point where the chord comes as unconsciously and blindly as most of the chords I play, basically without thinking about them at all. I still have to anticipate when this one is coming up and I'm still mostly looking at the fretboard when I play it. So I'm not all the way there yet. But after 40 years of problems with this recalcitrant chord, I'm making really substantial progress with it. I'd guess that it won't be too long before I'm playing it less and less consciously and then it'll just be another chord. I could sort of tell as soon as I started working with this approach that it was gonna be the ticket and I'm way more convinced now given how much progress I've made with it in such a short time.

So to anyone having trouble with one or two chords that just don't come easily to you, I highly recommend Gene's approach. At the very least, it's worth a try - it may not work for everyone, but it seems to be working for me and it may work for anyone...

-Ray