Is a slope shoulder a Dread or Jumbo

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by zoopeda

If you play a guitar, you should know what guitar you play. I think that’s fair to ask. But you’re right, lots of people play jumbos and call them dreadnoughts and life goes on. It’s become quite fashionable to just make stuff up and call it reality these days. If people don’t care enough to know their instrument, that’s the way it is.

I do know what it is...it's a J45.
Seriously, I really know a bunch of decent guitar players. Most of them know what brand their guitar is and the model in most cases, but little else. They don't care. I really have to say that I think you are placing too high of expectations on others when you say "should know what guitar you play" unless you're referring to the brand and model number. Why "should" they know? They're just not into it that much and so it is.
Anyway, we certainly see it differently, but that's what makes the world go 'round.

[Bernieman]

Originally Posted by Phoenix75

I know this is a daft question. But I've read articles that talk about slope shoulders in the context of advanced Jumbo's. I'm thinking about an Raj 126 similar I think to a j45. Is the volume similar to a dread but with a more balanced tonal spectrum with more emphasis on mid range Freq? Does a slope lend more comfort? I'm a big fan of ooo.

People here really speak highly of the raj126. A lot of praise for its tone and quality for its price? Underrated is commonly expressed...

It seems to me that the J-45 got its name after the Advanced Jumbo model, the original design of the 'slope shoulders' concept : it dates back to 1934 I think which is quite early, and for that time (first dreads had appeared not too long before), they were very large guitars...That's why you get this J - for Jumbo - thing in its name (45 was for $45 the price of the J-45 when it first appeared !! I've read).
Since then, the standard size of Jumbos has increased a lot, and the J-45 is not a jumbo anymore ; but it was at the time possibly the biggest shape, since the original Martin dreads - made for Ditson - were 12 frets guitars only, somehow smaller then probably..I can't remember when Martin got the 14 frets dreads out, nor when Gibson released the first J-45, but that's part of the story.
The letter J remains from that time : then in my opinion A DREAD that once had a jumbo size...

Don't know a thing about the Raj 126 though...

[PHJim]

If you place a Martin D-18 back to back with a Gibson Hummingbird, a Goya M-26 or a Guild D55, you'll find that they match exactly. A Yamaha FG180, however, has a unique shape which, although it's reminiscent of a dreadnought, and will fit in most dreadnought cases, is not the same shape.
Should we call the Yamahas "dreadnoughts"?

[Jaden]

It might be worth mentioning that Martin Co has traditionally designated guitars with 16” lower bout as jumbo size, but they now offer the DSS-15m and DSS-17 with that same lower bout and call them ‘slope shoulder dreadnoughts’ based solely on the curvature of the upper bout, while both are 14 fret to the body: the ship has indeed sailed and historical relevance has been sacrificed to the wind.

[Phoenix75]

I used to think when I walked in to my local guitar shop that an acoustic guitar either had 6 strings or 12 strings and was dread size. Then u could get travel guitars. That's how ignorant or brain washed I was. I used to wonder why my cheap catalogue guitars neck felt so much more comfy than the £300 one. I thought, oh it must be because its professional now. It's only until recently that I've learnt so much,o style,oo, ooo dread Jumbo ( knew there was Jumbo) parlour, travel baritone, which I've only learnt about, scale length, nut width, 12 fret! I love 12 frets now wow!

While I def do think sure if it's sounds good, it sounds good, and that's what's most important but I think it's a good thing to know and understand in this particular case what body shape u are playing. I'm still not clear though on the Raj so I'm thinking it's a dread with rounded shoulders designed to make the guitar slightly more comfier and then this secondly has an affect on tone separating it from a dreads tone. It's good to question everything otherwise naive brainwashed customers like I used to be are at the mercy of the pushy guitar sales guy. Question them to death and you might get a bargain.

Anyhows real surprised at how many of you good folks replied. I know what some mean by a pointless topic that's why I think it's 4 pages. A bit like Brexit here in the UK.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Bernieman

It seems to me that the J-45 got its name after the Advanced Jumbo model, the original design of the 'slope shoulders' concept : it dates back to 1934 I think which is quite early, and for that time (first dreads had appeared not too long before), they were very large guitars...That's why you get this J - for Jumbo - thing in its name (45 was for $45 the price of the J-45 when it first appeared !! I've read).
Since then, the standard size of Jumbos has increased a lot, and the J-45 is not a jumbo anymore ; but it was at the time possibly the biggest shape, since the original Martin dreads - made for Ditson - were 12 frets guitars only, somehow smaller then probably..I can't remember when Martin got the 14 frets dreads out, nor when Gibson released the first J-45, but that's part of the story.
The letter J remains from that time : then in my opinion A DREAD that once had a jumbo size...

Don't know a thing about the Raj 126 though...

Hi Bernieman, you are on the right track.

1916 - Martin Ditson 111
1926 - Gibson L-O/L-1 flat tops (1st flat tops)
1928 - Gibson nick Lucas
1929 - Gibson l-2 (flat-top)
1929 - Martin OM (1st 14 fret)
1931 - Martin D1 & D2 12 fret dreadnought
1932 - Martin renames them as D-18 & D28
1933 - Martin OM discontinued
1934 - Martin 14 fret Dreadnoughts
1934 - Gibson Jumbo (& Roy Smeck)
1935 - Gibson Advanced Jumbo
1936 - Gibson Jumbo discontinued, replaced by Gibson J-35
1938 - Gibson SJ-200
1939 - Gibson J-55
1939 - Gibson SJ-100
1940 - Gibson Advanced Jumbo discontinued
1942 - Gibson southern Jumbo
1942 - Gibson J-45 introduced
1947 - Gibson J-50
1951 - Gibson J-185
1954 - Martin D28-S (12 FRET)
1957 - Gibson acquired Epiphone
1960 - Gibson Hummingbird
1962 - Gibson Everly Brothers and Dove
1964 - Martin D12-20
1965 - Martin D35
1966 - Martin D35-S (12 fret)
1967 - Martin D18-S (12 fret)
1973 - Martin buys Levin
1977/8 - Martin "M" models
1978 - Martin HD28 introduced
1982 - Martin closes Levin
1998 - Martin HD28VS (12 fret Dreadnought)

Martin still makes "original" Dreadnoughts - 111, 222, 333(?) d28 '31 Authentic etc.

Just some dates to indicate how Dreadnoughts and Jumbos came and went on the market.

Note: Martin Dreadnoughts were 15 & 5/8" at widest point, gibson Dove, Hummingbird and heritate (squared shouldered versions) were 16 1/4" .

Martin Makes Dreadnoughts and Gibson make Jumbos, sure they emulate each other to tease each other, but Gibson whilst Gibson made the Birds and some J40/50 with square shoulders, they never made a dreadnought.

The OP's Recording King is neither fish nor fowl but the "AJ" in the nomenclature indicates that it is a standard scale - like the Gibson AJ, but looking more like a standard jumbo.

So, if you see a guitar that is neither a gibson nor a Martin but it looks like a Gibson Jumbo, you might call it a jumbo, and if it looks lke a Martin Dreadnought - then you might call it a dreadnought.

Wades description of perscriptive and descriptive mindsets is valid but it doesn't really resolve the issues that may arise by misnaming things.

So, its sunny outside and I've had my breakfast so I'll don my short legged trousers, and climb onto my two wheeled tricycle (!) and go to the gym.

See ya.

[Phoenix75]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi Bernieman, you are on the right track.

1916 - Martin Ditson 111
1926 - Gibson L-O/L-1 flat tops (1st flat tops)
1928 - Gibson nick Lucas
1929 - Gibson l-2 (flat-top)
1929 - Martin OM (1st 14 fret)
1931 - Martin D1 & D2 12 fret dreadnought
1932 - Martin renames them as D-18 & D28
1933 - Martin OM discontinued
1934 - Martin 14 fret Dreadnoughts
1934 - Gibson Jumbo (& Roy Smeck)
1935 - Gibson Advanced Jumbo
1936 - Gibson Jumbo discontinued, replaced by Gibson J-35
1938 - Gibson SJ-200
1939 - Gibson J-55
1939 - Gibson SJ-100
1940 - Gibson Advanced Jumbo discontinued
1942 - Gibson southern Jumbo
1942 - Gibson J-45 introduced
1947 - Gibson J-50
1951 - Gibson J-185
1954 - Martin D28-S (12 FRET)
1957 - Gibson acquired Epiphone
1960 - Gibson Hummingbird
1962 - Gibson Everly Brothers and Dove
1964 - Martin D12-20
1965 - Martin D35
1966 - Martin D35-S (12 fret)
1967 - Martin D18-S (12 fret)
1973 - Martin buys Levin
1977/8 - Martin "M" models
1978 - Martin HD28 introduced
1982 - Martin closes Levin
1998 - Martin HD28VS (12 fret Dreadnought)

Martin still makes "original" Dreadnoughts - 111, 222, 333(?) d28 '31 Authentic etc.

Just some dates to indicate how Dreadnoughts and Jumbos came and went on the market.

Note: Martin Dreadnoughts were 15 & 5/8" at widest point, gibson Dove, Hummingbird and heritate (squared shouldered versions) were 16 1/4" .

That's great info. The Raj is often compared to the J45. Do u know if it's the same body type then? I know the 126 has a full 25.4 scale. I'm thinking it is. I will know if I get my hands on it. Just need to push the trigger! Have u tried it Silly? I have to say that is an epic list of guitars u have in your hands. How the hec do u deal with all those beautiful monsters?

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Phoenix75

That's great info. The Raj is often compared to the J45. Do u know if it's the same body type then? I know the 126 has a full 25.4 scale. I'm thinking it is. I will know if I get my hands on it. Just need to push the trigger! Have u tried it Silly? I have to say that is an epic list of guitars u have in your hands. How the hec do u deal with all those beautiful monsters?

Hi, I'm afraid that all I know about your guitar is what I've seen online.
I\m not sure whether you are referring to the detail above, taken from a timeline that I compiled some time ago for an as yet unwritten history book.

You may be referring to my guitars as seen on my videos, then how do I cope?
One at a time!

[Bernieman]

Thanks Silly Moustache for the historical round trip (and your sense of humour)...
I found this : pretty outstanding ain't it ? . www.youtube.com/watch?v=85WrM22qalQ
I really like this guitar shop and their outstanding favourite guitar tester...