Tuning and Retuning

[WaltMickey]

I've been learning, or trying to learn, a lot of different songs that require downtuning from standard, and here is what I get:

When down tuning from standard (i.e.: to DADF#BD, DGDGAD, etc.), my strings have popped – specifically the G and high E. WHILST tuning down. I asked for some advice at my local guitar shop, and they told me to put in some pencil lead into the nut slots. I did that and although the strings did slide a lot smoother, they broke nonetheless. I have inspected my nuts and they all feel smooth. I brought it back in for further inspection and the guy told me it was simply because I tune so often, and thus there is no real solution.

This has happened to me 5 times already – x2 on the G and x3 on the high E.


Guitar: Martin 000-15m
Strings used: Martin SP Lifespan (standard out-of-the-factory set), D'Addario Phosphor Bronze Light, Elixir Nanoweb Phosphor Bronze Light


*The strings have never popped while tuning back up to standard, always down.
*I make sure I'm tuning in the right octave with a tuner.
*The strings don't even last a month before popping; the Elixirs popped within 6 days.
*I downtune and retune at least once a day.

The guy said it's something that I'll just have to "live with" if I'm not willing to buy another guitar for each tuning. So I'm planning on stocking up on high E's and when it pops again just replace it. But does this constant popping/releasing of tension followed by increasing of tension (replacing with a new string) have any harm on the guitar?

Until I figure out what I want to do, I loosened all the strings on the guitar and 5 strings sit in it with minimal tension. I've read to keep tension in the neck so it won't warp, but I've also read that it does no harm if I decide to remove all the strings altogether. What is the real answer?

I've read multiple answers on a variety of different sites and cannot find a consistent and reliable one.

[kdn]

Welcome to the Forum WaltMickey!

seriously i would take it to another luthier & explain to him what youve said here. it sounds to me like the nut slots are pinching the strings
& maybe could use a little attention.
i have always removed all the strings on my ax before restringing
& the only time i downtune is if im traveling across country (which i dont do anymore)
guitars are truely--in my onion--built to stay in tune
12 string guitars i almost always tune down 1 step to D

someone with more knowledge will be along shortly i believe

[fceltia63]

Originally Posted by WaltMickey

I've been learning, or trying to learn, a lot of different songs that require downtuning from standard, and here is what I get:

When down tuning from standard (i.e.: to DADF#BD, DGDGAD, etc.), my strings have popped – specifically the G and high E. WHILST tuning down. I asked for some advice at my local guitar shop, and they told me to put in some pencil lead into the nut slots. I did that and although the strings did slide a lot smoother, they broke nonetheless. I have inspected my nuts and they all feel smooth. I brought it back in for further inspection and the guy told me it was simply because I tune so often, and thus there is no real solution.

This has happened to me 5 times already – x2 on the G and x3 on the high E.


Guitar: Martin 000-15m
Strings used: Martin SP Lifespan (standard out-of-the-factory set), D'Addario Phosphor Bronze Light, Elixir Nanoweb Phosphor Bronze Light


*The strings have never popped while tuning back up to standard, always down.
*I make sure I'm tuning in the right octave with a tuner.
*The strings don't even last a month before popping; the Elixirs popped within 6 days.
*I downtune and retune at least once a day.

The guy said it's something that I'll just have to "live with" if I'm not willing to buy another guitar for each tuning. So I'm planning on stocking up on high E's and when it pops again just replace it. But does this constant popping/releasing of tension followed by increasing of tension (replacing with a new string) have any harm on the guitar?

Until I figure out what I want to do, I loosened all the strings guitar and 5 strings sit in it with minimal tension. I've read to keep tension in the neck so it won't warp, but I've also read that it does no harm if I decide to remove all the strings altogether. What is the real answer?

I've read multiple answers on a variety of different sites and cannot find a consistent and reliable one.

I'm not sure if this will help but I use 3 main tunings on the same guitar. Number 1 is CGCGCD #2 is DGDGCD #3 is DADGAD. I have never had a string break! In both of your tunings the sixth string D never changes and the fourth string only by 1 step yet they are the strings breaking. Something is amiss for sure!

[WaltMickey]

Originally Posted by fceltia63

I'm not sure if this will help but I use 3 main tunings on the same guitar. Number 1 is CGCGCD #2 is DGDGCD #3 is DADGAD. I have never had a string break! In both of your tunings the sixth string D never changes and the fourth string only by 1 step yet they are the strings breaking. Something is amiss for sure!

I'm sorry if I didn't clarify: My day starts off with the guitar in standard EADGBE, and throughout the day I tune down to those two tunings. So the 6th string goes down a step and back up quite often. The majority of the songs I play are in standard so I try to keep my guitar in that tuning whenever I don't need DADF#BD or DGDGAD.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by WaltMickey

I'm sorry if I didn't clarify: My day starts off with the guitar in standard EADGBE, and throughout the day I tune down to those two tunings. So the 6th string goes down a step and back up quite often. The majority of the songs I play are in standard so I try to keep my guitar in that tuning whenever I don't need DADF#BD or DGDGAD.

Hi WM...

First of all, Hello and Welcome to the forum! Glad you joined…don't think we have met yet.

A suggestion David Wilcox makes, which stopped me from breaking strings when tuning to/from alternate tunings, was to throw a more wraps on the shaft below the hole of every string. Before, I'd put one wrap above and two below.

I NOW put one wrap above the hole in the shaft, and three below on string 6, and then one above and four wraps below on strings 5 & 4, and at least 4 below on string 3 and then 6 or more wraps below on strings 1-2.

Have not broken a string in several years now (since I started the extra wraps). I'm not sure I buy into his explanation of why he 'thinks' it works…but it worked for him and me (and David Wilcox tunes up/down more than anyone I know).

He thinks it's because if you wrap further down the shaft, since it's thicker the string reels off and on the shaft more gently with less stress.

This is typically how mine looks these days. Often I have another couple wraps on the 3rd string than in this picture. I pretty much wrap my wound strings all the way to the bottom.




I have no scientific proof, but when my strings are wrapped this far down each shaft, it assures the break angle of the strings across the nut is always sufficient too.

[Wade Hampton]

Walt, in my experience nothing kills strings faster than changing tunings a lot. When I was playing in bars for my living and using a lot of different tunings, I changed my strings every other day. If I tried to leave them on there longer, I'd start having strings break.

You wrote:

*The strings don't even last a month before popping; the Elixirs popped within 6 days.

A month is far longer than you can realistically expect any strings, by any manufacturer, to last when you retune as frequently as you do. Whether they're coated or not - you're inflicting a great deal of metal fatigue on those strings on a daily basis. Any corrosion-resisting coating is irrelevant in this situation, given the sort of stress you're subjecting those strings to.

My best suggestion is that you find strings that you like and buy them in bulk to get the best volume price discount you can. Then start changing all the strings - not just the ones that break - at least once a week.

Your guitar will sound better, it'll stay in tune better, and chances are that your string breakage will be significantly less frequent.

I'm sorry if this isn't what you want to hear, but you're overtaxing the capabilities of your strings right now. You're trying to push past their physical limitations. That's why they're breaking, and why they will continue to break.

Changing them more frequently will help.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[aknow]

I think Larry is correct about this. Within 24 hours of restringing or gigging with any of my nylon string guitars, I'd frequently take the guitar out the next morning to discover a string had broken spontaneously overnight, in the case.
I had been getting lazy about winding more than once or twice around the shafts. A couple of extra winds, has seemingly stabilized the strings a lot more, and that doesn't seem to happen anymore.

[WaltMickey]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi WM...

First of all, Hello and Welcome to the forum! Glad you joined…don't think we have met yet.

A suggestion David Wilcox makes, which stopped me from breaking strings when tuning to/from alternate tunings, was to throw a more wraps on the shaft below the hole of every string. Before, I'd put one wrap above and two below.

I NOW put one wrap above the hole in the shaft, and three below on string 6, and then one above and four wraps below on strings 5 & 4, and at least 4 below on string 3 and then 6 or more wraps below on strings 1-2.

Have not broken a string in several years now (since I started the extra wraps). I'm not sure I buy into his explanation of why he 'thinks' it works…but it worked for him and me (and David Wilcox tunes up/down more than anyone I know).

He thinks it's because if you wrap further down the shaft, since it's thicker the string reels off and on the shaft more gently with less stress.

This is typically how mine looks these days. Often I have another couple wraps on the 3rd string than in this picture. I pretty much wrap my wound strings all the way to the bottom.




I have no scientific proof, but when my strings are wrapped this far down each shaft, it assures the break angle of the strings across the nut is always sufficient too.

I honestly don't know why I haven't joined these forums until now.

I started learning just last year so my knowledge is fairly insufficient at the moment. But what you suggest is very attracting, and I'll definitely try this when I restring, again. I have read that too many wraps is bad, and I've heard this from so many people (online forums and friends), so I am a little hesitant to try this. The guy at the Guitar Center I went to to get my guitar inspected, I don't even know if he's a certified luthier honestly, told me 3-5 wraps on that high E, but reminded me that if I tune as much as I do it'll still break.

However, from what you say and your experience, hopefully this will be the answer to my prayers. Mind me asking what guage string you use?

[Wade Hampton]

Walt, no matter how many wraps you use, leaving a set of guitar strings on a guitar for a month while changing the tuning several times a day is going to give you problems. To achieve better performance and to keep from breaking so many strings, you need to change your string sets more frequently than you have been, pure and simple.

Sorry if that's not the answer to your prayers that you sought.....


whm

[jseth]

Walt;

Lj has given you a good tip with that "above and below" windings thing... but, like Wade said (twice!), strings aren't made to be tuned down, up down, up, over and over and over... the metal gets fatigued EVERY TIME you tune down and up, then that gets exacerbated, again and again by repeating it each day.

Buy strings in bulk, change 'em more often; heck, buy another guitar! But the strings ARE going to keep breaking... that's the bad news...

Now, there are a few things that you can do to get a bit more out of your strings... I don't use LJ's method, but I heartily endorsed 4 or 5 windings on the post;! Not just 3, and certainly not less than that, ESPECIALLY on your high E string...

Next, have some one pay extra attention to the nut on your guitar; tell them how often you change tunings and that you need it be as smooth as possible...

Lastly? When you are actually tuning the string DOWN, keep a bit of "upward" pull on the string as you de-tune it, kind of tugging at it a bit while the pitch lowers... I can hardly remember when and who showed me this trick, but it's a good one! (Probably John Hug in 1973 or so... in Topanga Canyon)

That last thing about tugging the string a bit? That's a great way to "settle things out" with a string when you've de-tuned it, but before you re-tune... I think it seats the strings windings together on the tuning machine, so they are less likely to slip... also, if a string is just a fraction sharp, a little tug can bring it right where you want it, for fine tuning...

Good luck! Playing in 3 different tunings every day, and only been at it for a year, huh? I'd say you're hitting it pretty hard... keep after it! Oh, and WELCOME to the Forum; it'll be good to get to know you a bit!

[WaltMickey]

Wade,

The weird thing about this is that my friend is also constantly tuning and retuning and his strings have never broken as much as mine. He drops that high e down to d a lot as well.

[Clydeslide]

Originally Posted by aknow

I think Larry is correct about this. Within 24 hours of restringing or gigging with any of my nylon string guitars, I'd frequently take the guitar out the next morning to discover a string had broken spontaneously overnight, in the case.
I had been getting lazy about winding more than once or twice around the shafts. A couple of extra winds, has seemingly stabilized the strings a lot more, and that doesn't seem to happen anymore.

You have nylon sting guitars which aren't slotted headstocks? Who makes those?

[Laughingboy68]

WM:

I tune down and change tunings everyday like you do. It does put extra stress on strings, but it sounds like you need to have a good luthier take a look at your setup and see if there are any sharp edges or burrs that might be affecting things.

I use Drop D, Double Drop D, open G, open D and even tune up to open E regularly and my strings don't break as much as yours. My typical first set starts in standard tuning and gradually morphs to open G with a low C on the sixth string and I've never broken a string in my first set. I would follow the advice you've gotten in this thread and see if it makes a difference. If not, find an experienced luthier to do a thorough setup of your guitar, after informing him of the issues. At the very least, you'll see the benefit of having this done as far as playability is concerned.

Mike

Mike

[jay7347]

+1 on what Larry says above.

I change tunings on some days up to six or seven times. I break a string once every three or four months, and usually change about every two weeks, or 45-50 hours of playing. One other part of my protocol is to tune to standard when I change strings, yeah I stretch the heck out of them before and let them stay in standard overnight. This has really cut down my breakage in addition to Larry's wrap method and the pencil lead shavings in the nut. I baby things when I retune and it seems to work well with my Lowden. Now I just wish I could afford a fan fret to give more tension for all the times I'm tuned down to C on the sixth string.

-jay

[JCook1]

I do a lot of tuning up and down also, and I haven't had a problem with strings breaking, but they do go dead faster than if I leave them in one tuning. Check to make sure they slide through the nut slots smoothly, as others have said, but it depends also on where the strings are breaking. If they break right at the tuning post you might have a burr on the edge of the hole.

I also use multiple windings around the post when I string up, as ljguitar does; he seems to use more windings than I do - I use two or three - but I think it's a good idea (lj, I have to say you do a very neat job of stringing). I've also read that you should only have one wind around the post, but I think it's bunk, frankly. Multiple windings, going down the post, help secure the string from slippage, and as lj says, gives them a good angle on the nut.

Is it also possible that you've gotten a bad batch of strings? I had this happen to me year before last when I ordered a bunch of sets of Martin mediums. For about four of those sets, the high E string broke as I was tuning it up after putting it on. I went out and bought a bunch of cheap spare E strings, and none of them broke. I put it down to a bad batch of strings. It hasn't happened since. How they could be "bad" I have no idea, but I had to grasp at some explanation.

Jack