Tips on writing collaboratively (wanted).

[Daniel Grenier]

Do you write original guitar music in a duo with the other person writing the words?

That is what I am about to embark on with a good singer who does not play guitar but is good with words (which I am not).

Surely, you have good tips and “tricks” from your experiences. Somewhat vague of a request, I know, but I would like to hear on anything related to such an endeavour. Our “style” is to be folk-centric acoustic originals.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Daniel

[DaveKell]

I've had a few conversations with pros on this very subject. They all said same thing, you have to check your ego at the door. It's not a competition but an effort to achieve that old saying of two heads are better than one. My successful friend in Nashville told me you don't even bother coming to town unless you can collaborate with others because it's the accepted norm. Personally I've had some incredible improvements made to a few of my completed lyrics by someone who offered to review them. I've had entirely mundane lyrics transformed with a suggestion of changing only a few lines or word choices I never would've thought of on my own. While I remain entirely happy going it alone (after all, I majored in comparative literature), I'm very open to collaborative efforts because of just a few major benefits I've already received.

[FrankHudson]

I'm a long time writer, who also pays attention to lyrics in songs. I've worked for nearly 40 years with another writer. Both of us compose our own songs words & music, but my musical partner Dave has also had other folks compose music for his lyrics, and I've done that with his words for years as well.

That sounds something like your situation.

In addition, I've worked extensively on a project for the past three years to combine various words (mostly poetry) with music in various ways. Some of those are songs, some of them are something else, but once again, someone else's words.

Your question has many dimensions, and people and musical aims differ. Here are a few outline points.


The word-writer may be quite attached to their words and what they mean to them. You may not understand them the same way they do. Some writers are open to their words being re-interpreted, some are not. Be sensitive to that.


Some writers write words that harder to get into a musical setting, or lack "hook" elements that are important to capturing some audiences. With luck, your lyricist won't mind if you nip and tuck their words to fit an interesting musical structure and will be grateful if you can find hooks buried in their original lyrics. I almost never add words with Dave or with my project, but I will trim away words or add refrains or repeating words/lines using stuff from the original lyrics fairly often.


I find that composing with another's words opens me up as composer vs. the usual singer-songwriter thing. Words will suggest new musical approaches, and having the words out of the way lets one concentrate and stretch yourself as a musician and composer. For example, my current project has lead me to dive into keyboards and and it's trying to get me to expand my harmonic language and counterpoint.

And the reverse can work too. I believe more words & music duos work words first, then the music (could be wrong on that). But the reverse is a good way to expand a duo's range, even if you only do this once in awhile. Just as having the words out of the way first stretches you to new places as a composer, having to engender words to fit an existing set of music may help the lyricist find new things. Remember, the same forbearance in striving for a song that works might falls to you if the eventual words may ask for modifications on your original music.

[jseth]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I'm a long time writer, who also pays attention to lyrics in songs. I've worked for nearly 40 years with another writer. Both of us compose our own songs words & music, but my musical partner Dave has also had other folks compose music for his lyrics, and I've done that with his words for years as well.

That sounds something like your situation.

In addition, I've worked extensively on a project for the past three years to combine various words (mostly poetry) with music in various ways. Some of those are songs, some of them are something else, but once again, someone else's words.

Your question has many dimensions, and people and musical aims differ. Here are a few outline points.


The word-writer may be quite attached to their words and what they mean to them. You may not understand them the same way they do. Some writers are open to their words being re-interpreted, some are not. Be sensitive to that.


Some writers write words that harder to get into a musical setting, or lack "hook" elements that are important to capturing some audiences. With luck, your lyricist won't mind if you nip and tuck their words to fit an interesting musical structure and will be grateful if you can find hooks buried in their original lyrics. I almost never add words with Dave or with my project, but I will trim away words or add refrains or repeating words/lines using stuff from the original lyrics fairly often.


I find that composing with another's words opens me up as composer vs. the usual singer-songwriter thing. Words will suggest new musical approaches, and having the words out of the way lets one concentrate and stretch yourself as a musician and composer. For example, my current project has lead me to dive into keyboards and and it's trying to get me to expand my harmonic language and counterpoint.

And the reverse can work too. I believe more words & music duos work words first, then the music (could be wrong on that). But the reverse is a good way to expand a duo's range, even if you only do this once in awhile. Just as having the words out of the way first stretches you to new places as a composer, having to engender words to fit an existing set of music may help the lyricist find new things. Remember, the same forbearance in striving for a song that works might falls to you if the eventual words may ask for modifications on your original music.

Absolutely wonderful post, Frank! Saved me a whole bunch of time and I'm certain that your verbiage would have been easier to "track" than mine...

I wrote my "first" song when I was 12 or 13... I have been writing songs since then, so, some 50+ years. I never got that "hit' song (you know, the one that will change EVERYTHING?!), but I've been fortunate to keep singing, playing and writing songs that I care a lot about, that are important that folks hear them, that have something to give...

While there have been periods where I "chased the popular sound", I have held to more an artistic vision of what music and these songs mean... creating "REAL", authentic human connection is important to me.

This may take me out of the area of offering a lot of help, IF what you want from your songwriting collaboration is marketing them as a focal point. You can research that, should you choose to do so. Lots of ways to do that, and many are well-documented.

I would re-read Frank's post several times, thoroughly, and make sure you understand what he's talking about; VERY important stuff to know about working with other writers and, especially, artists. While the majority of my songwriting has been writing both lyric and music, I have worked with 20 or 30 other folks over the years; some extremely fruitful (songs written 40 years ago that I would play in front of ANYONE...), some "dead-ends", some where songs were completed, but they were horrible! I've taken on "commissions" to collaborate and done what was wanted... Frank's post is a very good framework within which you can at least have some semblance of a clue, going in...

Sounds like, if things go well, it may be more than just a "one and done"-type deal... bear that in mind; it's not a race. It'll be fun, I'm sure, and you'll learn a lot from the experience (s).

I wouldn't get frustrated if nothing happens the first session - although you never know - I know when I'm writing a song, I can do all I can, but, there's this sense that "the song knows" where it wants to go. Many times, it takes a good while before the little bugger reveals the direction! And, every time so far, it just feels really wrong to go ahead and "finish" a song, just to have it done.

Let us know how it goes, please!

[rdm321]

Hi Daniel:

All of the above is good advice.
I believe that the rapport between the two collaborators is also very important. If you and the lyricist are good friends, comfortable and respectful with each other, your collaborative results will be better, and you'll enjoy working together.
A few additional thoughts:
Not every song will work out; there will be some that never come out in a satisfactory way, no matter how long you work on it.
Keep everything that you write/compose. Even if it's a tiny snippet of music or lyric, it may be useful someday. If you have one good verse, it can be used as the bridge in another song.
Sometimes it's best to put a project aside for a while, then revisit it at a later time.
Is there a venue nearby where you can perform the songs in front of an audience? I find that nothing beats an open stage for trying out new material.
Most importantly - have fun doing it!

[Daniel Grenier]

Thank you for the thoughtful and considered advice, folks. Much appreciated and a good footing to start this new adventure. It should be an eye-opening and rewarding experience. Looking forward to it.