How to mix this?

[Dave Hicks]

An instrumental track of Willie O’ Winsbury. (I like the melody, but there’s way more verses than I want to sing.) This was recorded on a Zoom R8 and mixed in Cubase. Mic was a Blue Spark (LDC).

The tracks are:

Acoustic rhythm guitar, fingerpicked. Panned 70 L.

Acoustic rhythm guitar, strummed. Panned 40 L. Lower volume than the fingerpicked track; a little reverb added.

Melody mandolin. Panned 70 R. I had to dupe this track, as the volume was low; however, it also has a few automated volume notches on notes in the intro section that got into the red on the meter. Slight boost at 400 and cut at 1600 Hz. Some reverb.

Harmony mandolin. Panned 40 R. Some volume automation here, too. Lower volume than main mandolin, but enough to hear as a separate part, I hope. Boosted a little at 150 and cut a bit above 5000 Hz to differentiate it from the melody. (Also a different instrument, Flatiron f-hole for the melody and Gibson oval for the harmony.)

All tracks have a major EQ cut below 70 Hz.

Do you have some suggestions on panning, EQ, or other ways to get a better mix? I have a SDC mic, too – would that be better for the mandolins?

Things I know I need to do are 1. redo the mandolin parts so the timing syncs up better, with more signal on the melody; 2. figure out what to do with rest of the track (another 90 sec or so) – probably takeoffs on the melody.

Thanks for your help!

D.H.

[runamuck]

This is a matter of taste but I'd boost the level of the guitar and add some ambience to the mandolins.

[KevWind]

humm As note "a matter of taste". Sounds pretty good however I really can't tell any difference in the two Mandolin parts (and maybe that is what you are going for ). And can barely hear the strummed guitar
There are as many possibilities for mix decisions as there are mixers

Me I would try this maybe :
Dup the strummed guitar part, and slip one slightly in the time line and then pan them 70 L and 70 R. to give the entire production more width but with some more depth also. and bring it up to the level of the fingerpick guitar . Pan finger guitar 40 L
I would not do a differentiate boost , with out also doing a slight differentiated cut as well

I would then pan one Mando melody part 30 R and one melody part 50 R And then pan the Harmony Mando 40 R (or center)

And I would also think a parallel Reverb track and maybe some slight compression on mando

[keith.rogers]

First, there's no center, so it's hard for me to understand what's important in the mix. I'd say, first of all, just mix that finger-style guitar and mandolin melody. Assuming the mandolin (melody) is really the important part, I think it should probably be in the center, just like you might place a lead vocal.

I'd consider just starting with a mix of those two, unless the (almost inaudible) strummed guitar is supposed to be providing rhythm, in which case, it needs to be way up in the mix. Pick the foundation track, i.e., where the "groove" lies, and mix the melody on top. (Rather than double the track, just apply "clip gain" or a gain plugin, and get the level up to where you can mix with it.) I'd do all of this before automating the fader. Ignore the bad peaks until most of it is balanced. Then you can automate them down, or slice the track and use clip gain, or even consider a compressor to tame it.

At that point, I wouldn't add anything else until you've decided if what you have works. Minor timing issues should be corrected, and there's nothing that says you can slide around bits or stretch and squeeze to fix just minor things if that's all it is. If you recorded with a click initially, you should be able to line up what you have on a grid and see where the big problems are. Then, you can decide whether to re-track or not. I would not spend a lot more time trying to mix the whole thing until you have pieces that you want to use. Maybe punching in a bit if necessary, but if you're already thinking of re-doing something, it's time to really think about what the end piece is going to be, before recording more. As a dear friend advised me a few years back, at least have an idea of what it will sound like at the end and "put on your producer hat" before you have anyone (including yourself) sit down and spend time recording something. My $.02.

[Al Acuff]

If you can monitor in mono then perhaps it might help you to mix in mono first and then do your stereo panning. When you listen in mono it's easier to get the levels and the tonal balance right.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Al Acuff

If you can monitor in mono then perhaps it might help you to mix in mono first and then do your stereo panning. When you listen in mono it's easier to get the levels and the tonal balance right.

Ditto.

Try mixing in mono then exporting to a single mono track. Import your mono mixed track into Cubase and mute it, using the track soloed to judge your final stereo mix. It's easy to A-B what your original intentions were with your final stereo mix that way.

When I mix simple acoustic stuff I use the "closed eyes" approach to position players where I would hear them if they were actually playing in front of me. Pans that are too wide makes the sound stage sound artificial and odd. As an extreme example, if you had a single singer playing a guitar you wouldn't hard pan the mics left and right, as that wouldn't be a possibility in real life.

Your track doesn't sound that far off to me, although I'd narrow the pans and add a bit more verb to the guitar so it didn't seem so up front.

It aligns more closely to what I like, but a nice bass mixed to center would fill out the sound stage and add coherence while still remaining as an intimate mix. I play bass, so that influences its importance in musical compositions for me. YMMV. Even though the mando parts are doubled I would prefer "seeing" a three piece band with an upright bass player.

[Dave Hicks]

Thanks for your comments, everybody. As with the previous time when I asked for mix suggestions (a couple years and more ago) I found them helpful.

I haven't had the chance to work on this much more, but I tried a mix with guitars spread L and R and mandos toward the center, also changed the eq on similar instruments to differentiate them better.

The mono mix sounds good, I'll try that, too.

I'll try a (simple) bass part. If I'm not inhibited by the fact that John Renbourn played on the version of this tune that I'm most familiar with, why should I worry about Danny Thompson ?

Once I get something I like I'll post a link.

D.H.

[Dave Hicks]

Here's another go at it - I'll leave the original demo up for a bit, but I'll delete it to make some Soundcloud space.

What I did was:

Add a bass part, which is right up the middle. (Thanks to Al Acuff for the suggestion.) The strummed rhythm guitar then seemed irrelevant, so I ditched it.

Put the remaining (fingerpicked) rhythm guitar to the left, with some reverb and delay.

Put the mandolins to the right - melody at 70 and harmony at 20. Muted the harmony mando on the intro, which got rid of most timing and redline problems.

Added a lead guitar part, also 70R.

Did lots of tinkering with EQ, automated some volume changes on the harmony mandolin - too complicated to be worth giving the details.

Better/worse/can't tell? (There are still a few timing issues, but I've had enough of this track at the moment.)

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Dave Hicks

Here's another go at it - I'll leave the original demo up for a bit, but I'll delete it to make some Soundcloud space.

What I did was:

Add a bass part, which is right up the middle. The strummed rhythm guitar then seemed irrelevant, so I ditched it.

Put the remaining (fingerpicked) rhythm guitar to the left, with some reverb and delay.

Put the mandolins to the right - melody at 70 and harmony at 20. Muted the harmony mando on the intro, which got rid of most timing and redline problems.

Added a lead guitar part, also 70R.

Did lots of tinkering with EQ, automated some volume changes on the harmony mandolin - too complicated to be worth giving the details.

Better/worse/can't tell? (There are still a few timing issues, but I've had enough of this track at the moment.)

Yes put it away often some time away will sharpen you perspective when and if you do revisit .
Better as far as width now it's time to think about front to back depth .For my tastes the Mando's are a still bit too far forward for a multi instrument piece. If you revisit I would consider some compression on the mando's and some reverb to get them to sit more in the mix
Also I can barely hear the bass so I would think about some compression on it as well (slower attack) and some make up gain to move it more forward

[Dave Hicks]

Final version is here: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=648016

More bass, more compression and more reverb on mandos and bass and a little on the overall mix.

I disappeared the earlier versions.

D.H.

[DupleMeter]

Just listened to your version on Show & Tell. My comments as professional mix engineer for nearly 30 years:

Nice playing & good arrangement!

it's quite muddy, too many sounds are fighting for those low mids...along with the reverb building up in the mids as well. I would go through and see where you can lighten up those low mids in the individual tracks.

The reverb isn't feeling natural. My ear wants to hear something more liek a natural space to tie everything together. If you don't have a better reverb, see if you can back the RT60 time off a bit & high pass around 400Hz and give it a dip around 2kHz to help smooth it out & then low pass around 6kHz to help hide the tails a bit. This should be all on the reverb return bus. Maybe even drop the reverb level a little too.

The guitar feels like it's lost far away. I want to hear it more present and less distant sounding. It's like they got stuck in another room. It doesn't sound like the music would sound if you had people playing live in front of you.

These are all super common issues for new mixers. We all start here. I definitely think you can improve this with just adjusting.

[Dave Hicks]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Just listened to your version on Show & Tell. My comments as professional mix engineer for nearly 30 years:

Nice playing & good arrangement!

it's quite muddy, too many sounds are fighting for those low mids...along with the reverb building up in the mids as well. I would go through and see where you can lighten up those low mids in the individual tracks.

The reverb isn't feeling natural. My ear wants to hear something more liek a natural space to tie everything together. If you don't have a better reverb, see if you can back the RT60 time off a bit & high pass around 400Hz and give it a dip around 2kHz to help smooth it out & then low pass around 6kHz to help hide the tails a bit. This should be all on the reverb return bus. Maybe even drop the reverb level a little too.

The guitar feels like it's lost far away. I want to hear it more present and less distant sounding. It's like they got stuck in another room. It doesn't sound like the music would sound if you had people playing live in front of you.

These are all super common issues for new mixers. We all start here. I definitely think you can improve this with just adjusting.

Thanks, Steve!

D.H.