Segovia Diatonic Major and Minor Scales

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Great. That hasn't stopped a lot of other people. I'd like to hear something. Post a recording
you have made of a piece in your repertoire.

I started playing the guitar at age 13. I started playing classical guitar at 18. I'm now 61. I haven't played more than a few hours per year in the last decade. Back in the day, I practiced 4 to 5 hours per day, every day.

This impromptu video was made 6 years ago to demonstrate the first sounds that came out of a steel string guitar that I made for Walker Henderson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwM6fp483Ds


I've offered what I believe to be helpful advice based on decades of playing. People are free to take that advice or not. I don't have anything I need to prove to anyone.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I started playing the guitar at age 13. I started playing classical guitar at 18. I'm now 61. I haven't played more than a few hours per year in the last decade.

This impromptu video was made 6 years ago to demonstrate the first sounds that came out of a steel string guitar that I made for Walker Henderson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwM6fp483Ds


I've offered what I believe to be helpful advice based on decades of playing. People are free to take that advice or not. I don't have anything I need to prove to anyone.

Thanks for the vid. Sounds nice. My guitar days go back to the mid 1960's and piano a decade before that. Built a few guitar's in the late 1960's.

Generally I have opinions on most topics but try to avoid being pedantic about them.

[NormanKliman]

Charles,

Just want to thank you for this thread because I get the impression that it hasn’t gotten the appreciation it deserves. There’s a lot of useful information here that will benefit anyone who's willing to put in the time and effort. For a few reasons, I feel that the complete set of scales and striking-hand patterns is a bit much, but the targeted techniques (alternating fingers and rest strokes) go a long way toward building necessary skills. So thanks for taking the time to post all of that.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by NormanKliman

Charles,

Just want to thank you for this thread because I get the impression that it hasn’t gotten the appreciation it deserves. There’s a lot of useful information here that will benefit anyone who's willing to put in the time and effort. For a few reasons, I feel that the complete set of scales and striking-hand patterns is a bit much, but the targeted techniques (alternating fingers and rest strokes) go a long way toward building necessary skills. So thanks for taking the time to post all of that.

Agreed, I am very grateful too and started scale 3 today, having managed all fingerings on C major and three of them on A minor (which is much tougher)

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

....having managed all fingerings on C major and three of them on A minor (which is much tougher)

How so? Because the minor ascending and descending patterns are different?
Or are you referring to right hand fingerings?
Just curious.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by AndreF

How so? Because the minor ascending and descending patterns are different?

Or are you referring to right hand fingerings?

Just curious.

Yes, right hand patterns :-)

I think because the A minor is across more octaves, has that awkward piece right up the neck and is different in descent - the focus that requires on left hand means I make more mistakes on the right hand when trying to use M/A or A/M etc..

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Yes, right hand patterns :-)

I think because the A minor is across more octaves, has that awkward piece right up the neck and is different in descent - the focus that requires on left hand means I make more mistakes on the right hand when trying to use M/A or A/M etc..

I certainly commend you for committing yourself so intensely to this kind of "boot camp" scale practice. It certainly can be effective, if done right and stuck with. You seem to have the determination to do so.
Effective scale practice can take on many forms though. Personally, I think if you had, let's say, 30 minutes of time budgeted for scales every day, and spent all 30 going through each major/minor scale patterns alternating between i-m, m-a, i-a, it wouldn't be as productive as just sticking with i-m, and sprinkling in different rhythms, like triplets, dotted rhythms, rest/free, speed bursts, etc...i.e. things that you are a lot more likely to ever encounter than a long scale passage using m-a or i-a. (I think working on p-i is better time spent than m-a).
Unless of course, you have the kind of time that a serious classical student has to have to in order to go through all these variations, like hours every day, and mastery of all possible variations is part of the curriculum. That would certainly get the job done, and then some.
But as we grow older we have get more selective. (and avoid overuse injuries).
Another fun way to practice scales is just tackling a gorgeous piece of music that is full of them. And learn to shape musical lines, and practice phrasing its scale passages at the same time. You need to look no further than Bach to cover ALL those bases. You can still alternate right hand fingerings, but the music is much more motivational (imo) in the long run, and rewarding, than just going through the major/minor scale patterns. Which is important to learn of course, but is not the only way to practice scales.
Similarly, composers like Carcassi and Aguado wrote many scale based studies which are both musical and very effective at honing your fingers in the right way.
Don't get me wrong. Not trying to dissuade you from pursuing whatever path you have deemed to work best for you. Learning the major/minor scales is also essential and useful knowledge.
I guess my point is that it's important to keep the overall goal in perspective, and keep an open mind as to how best to achieve it. And avoid burnout at all costs!

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by AndreF

I certainly commend you for committing yourself so intensely to this kind of "boot camp" scale practice. It certainly can be effective, if done right and stuck with. You seem to have the determination to do so.
Effective scale practice can take on many forms though. Personally, I think if you had, let's say, 30 minutes of time budgeted for scales every day, and spent all 30 going through each major/minor scale patterns alternating between i-m, m-a, i-a, it wouldn't be as productive as just sticking with i-m, and sprinkling in different rhythms, like triplets, dotted rhythms, rest/free, speed bursts, etc...i.e. things that you are a lot more likely to ever encounter than a long scale passage using m-a or i-a. (I think working on p-i is better time spent than m-a).
Unless of course, you have the kind of time that a serious classical student has to have to in order to go through all these variations, like hours every day, and mastery of all possible variations is part of the curriculum. That would certainly get the job done, and then some.
But as we grow older we have get more selective. (and avoid overuse injuries).
Another fun way to practice scales is just tackling a gorgeous piece of music that is full of them. And learn to shape musical lines, and practice phrasing its scale passages at the same time. You need to look no further than Bach to cover ALL those bases. You can still alternate right hand fingerings, but the music is much more motivational (imo) in the long run, and rewarding, than just going through the major/minor scale patterns. Which is important to learn of course, but is not the only way to practice scales.
Similarly, composers like Carcassi and Aguado wrote many scale based studies which are both musical and very effective at honing your fingers in the right way.
Don't get me wrong. Not trying to dissuade you from pursuing whatever path you have deemed to work best for you. Learning the major/minor scales is also essential and useful knowledge.
I guess my point is that it's important to keep the overall goal in perspective, and keep an open mind as to how best to achieve it. And avoid burnout at all costs!

That is what I do. I don't have the time to do two hours of scales a day (what Segovia wanted his students to do) plus work through new pieces and maintain some of the prior ones. Plenty of single note lines in my repertoire which could include a single line changing from one chord scale to another, added chromatic notes, open strings sometimes to allow for huge hand position jumps, and a lot of scales combined with various chordal harmony notes.

[ssstewart]

i was infatuated with andre segovia for many many years. the Master of Masters. Asturias is my wifes favorite that i play for her, believe it or not it actually helps lower my blood pressure when i play it.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by NormanKliman

Charles,

Just want to thank you for this thread because I get the impression that it hasn’t gotten the appreciation it deserves. There’s a lot of useful information here that will benefit anyone who's willing to put in the time and effort. For a few reasons, I feel that the complete set of scales and striking-hand patterns is a bit much, but the targeted techniques (alternating fingers and rest strokes) go a long way toward building necessary skills. So thanks for taking the time to post all of that.

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Agreed, I am very grateful too and started scale 3 today, having managed all fingerings on C major and three of them on A minor (which is much tougher)

Thank you, I appreciate it.

That said, be clear that I'm not imparting some secret that no one knows about. Just about every classically-trained musician spends some portion of his or her daily practice working on technique (i.e. technical exercises). Usually, part of the technical exercises involves playing some version of scales.

As I stated previously, I used to practice four or five one-hour sessions per day, one of which was dedicated to technique. That is, roughly 1/4 of my practice was spent on technique, which is pretty typical of classically-trained musicians. Of that one hour spent on technique, as I stated, 20 minutes was spent on scales. That's 1/3 of the technical exercises and 1/12 of my daily practice. The other 2/3 of technique was spent on other exercises. The other three hours were spent on 1) playing and practicing existing repertoire and 2) learning new repertoire.

To accomplish 6 of the 7 right hand plucking combinations that Segovia prescribes, as I previously stated, I divided the scales into 6 groups of four scales. Each group was played with a single alternating plucking pattern, before going on to the next group of 4 plucked with a different pattern. That allowed all the scales to be played, in 6 of the 7 combinations in 20 minutes, repeating each scale four times.

That was my schedule and was what my teacher recommended and what he did. It worked well for me and for him.

As I've also previously stated, each person has to find what works for him or her. For example, if one sets aside an hour per day to play, then, it might be that 5 minutes (e.g. 1/12) of that hour is spent on scales. One can't play all 24 scales, with all combinations of right hand plucking in 5 minutes. There are numerous ways that one could then approach scales, working only 5 minutes per day on them. One way is to play only four of the scales per day, progressing through the 24 scales, four at a time, on successive days. That would have you return to the first set of four after one week. There are lots of other ways to approach it. Andre's suggestions are all good ways of doing so.

The point is to spend some portion of one's practice time working on technique to improve one's playing. Scales are a very common practice for doing that, but not the only practice. Scales with slurs, scales in triplets and various other rythms, arpeggios, block chord inversions (more for jazz than classical), finger independence exercises and so on are often included. But, again, the purpose of practicing technique is not to replace playing music, but to provide an efficient means of working on technical aspects of one's playing so that one can better play the music one wants to.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Thank you, I appreciate it.

That said, be clear that I'm not imparting some secret that no one knows about. Just about every classically-trained musician spends some portion of his or her daily practice working on technique (i.e. technical exercises). Usually, part of the technical exercises involves playing some version of scales.

As I stated previously, I used to practice four or five one-hour sessions per day, one of which was dedicated to technique. That is, roughly 1/4 of my practice was spent on technique, which is pretty typical of classically-trained musicians. Of that one hour spent on technique, as I stated, 20 minutes was spent on scales. That's 1/3 of the technical exercises and 1/12 of my daily practice. The other 2/3 of technique was spent on other exercises. The other three hours were spent on 1) playing and practicing existing repertoire and 2) learning new repertoire.

To accomplish 6 of the 7 right hand plucking combinations that Segovia prescribes, as I previously stated, I divided the scales into 6 groups of four scales. Each group was played with a single alternating plucking pattern, before going on to the next group of 4 plucked with a different pattern. That allowed all the scales to be played, in 6 of the 7 combinations in 20 minutes, repeating each scale four times.

That was my schedule and was what my teacher recommended and what he did. It worked well for me and for him.

As I've also previously stated, each person has to find what works for him or her. For example, if one sets aside an hour per day to play, then, it might be that 5 minutes (e.g. 1/12) of that hour is spent on scales. One can't play all 24 scales, with all combinations of right hand plucking in 5 minutes. There are numerous ways that one could then approach scales, working only 5 minutes per day on them. One way is to play only four of the scales per day, progressing through the 24 scales, four at a time, on successive days. That would have you return to the first set of four after one week. There are lots of other ways to approach it. Andre's suggestions are all good ways of doing so.

The point is to spend some portion of one's practice time working on technique to improve one's playing. Scales are a very common practice for doing that, but not the only practice. Scales with slurs, scales in triplets and various other rythms, arpeggios, block chord inversions (more for jazz than classical), finger independence exercises and so on are often included. But, again, the purpose of practicing technique is not to replace playing music, but to provide an efficient means of working on technical aspects of one's playing so that one can better play the music one wants to.

Fair points.

Right now I have more time (3-4h) each day so am allotting 45-60 mins to scales. Due to the process of learning the left hand I will find myself working through several right hand patterns.

As time tightens up and I know the left hand positions then I will aim to reduce to 20 mins and use your technique for grouping into sets of 4.

[NormanKliman]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

...But, again, the purpose of practicing technique is not to replace playing music...

For that reason, I don’t care for the unmusical aspects of some scale drills. I usually draw the line at chromatic and “geometric” patterns, because they sound to me like something rattling itself apart as it rolls downhill.

Good points made above in posts by Andre and Derek.

I’ve got a few scale exercises on my website that are similar in nature and focus to the Segovia scales. In recent years, I’ve been trying to make them shorter and more effective, and I came up with a further distillation a few weeks ago that seems to be a winner. I’ll try to upload it in coming weeks and will post here to get feedback from you guys.

[TRose]

Thank you, Mr Tauber.

[Wrighty]

Just checking back in with an update on my scales practice - 10 days and around 9h of work on these so far and progress has been solid. I have got the first 3 scales under my fingers and am working on the 4th. Right hand patterns now coming much easier - I can satisfactorily play all the variations except for the beast that is I/M/A/M which I find to be really challenging to co-ordinate at even a snails pace - but it is improving.

I admit to enjoying these and finding they provide a great warm up!

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by TRose

Thank you, Mr Tauber.

You're welcome.