Passive pickups and your CF guitar

[Gordon Currie]

I have started my search for a CF guitar. My expectation is that I can get within 90% or better for all the areas I value in an acoustic guitar (tone, playability, response, versatility) and exceed in areas such as stability/structural integrity.

I use passive SBT transducers only (K+K, Dazzo) with my wood acoustics and I put them through Tonedexter. (If a guitar came with anything else, I would remove and replace it.)

My question: What have others experienced as far as transducers with CF guitars? Is there any difference vs. wood guitars? Do tops vibrate in the same way, so SBTs would respond the same way, or is there something to be aware of here?

Anyone using Tonedexter with a CF guitar? Good/bad? Just the same as with a wood instrument?

I read some posts indicating that prepping a top to attach SBT sensors was an extra step. Anyone experienced this and was it straightforward?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[AZLiberty]

I have a K&K in my Rainsong Shorty.

Only problem I have had is the normal problem one has with passives: Depending on the house system, sometimes you have to bring either a DI box or external pre-amp.

As long as you don't mind the downsides to a passive, they work just as well in most CF guitars as wood. In the past, when ordering an Emerald it was suggested that you let Emerald know that you planned to install a K&K and they would prep the bottom of the "soundboard" with a flat area for you. On a Rainsong or other flat-top it's not an issue.

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

I have a K&K in my Rainsong Shorty.

Only problem I have had is the normal problem one has with passives: Depending on the house system, sometimes you have to bring either a DI box or external pre-amp.

Yup, I am very familiar with that and use my Tonedexter as a buffer.

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

As long as you don't mind the downsides to a passive, they work just as well in most CF guitars as wood. In the past, when ordering an Emerald it was suggested that you let Emerald know that you planned to install a K&K and they would prep the bottom of the "soundboard" with a flat area for you. On a Rainsong or other flat-top it's not an issue.

Oh! I did not realize the Emerald top was not strictly flat. Good thing to know. They sure are visually stunning guitars.

I've run K&K passive through a number of CF guitars--no problems. I'm now trying out a Barbera, active pickup and I am liking it a lot.

[Methos1979]

All my guitars have K&K's in them, wood and CF. The Emeralds require an extra step during construction to flatten/level the area where the SBT attaches. It's not something you can do after the fact, or at least it would not be an easy task. I know this as my first X20 bought used had the old B-Band and when I contacted Emerald to see if I could swap out to a K&K they informed me of the needed alteration during construction.

The K&K (and I assume all SBT types) perform exactly same in CF as it does in wood. A little better, actually. They still need the same preamp and EQ'ing depending on your playing style. My two current guitars have the same K&K system on both. Both use approximately the same EQ'ing to get the tone I like. However, the X20 is 'hotter' than the Martin. It's significantly louder and I find that if I'm playing at an open mic through the house PA I need to either have someone really good on the sound board or bring a small preamp/EQ with notch.

I find that the A string always needs to be notched out a bit for most open mics that use a standard, generic EQ which is usually set up for strummers that play with pics. That is mostly because I play fingerstyle with no nails so my tone is muddy without the proper EQ and most sound people don't know how (or don't care) to handle it whereas I can dial it in in seconds. If I've got a preamp on me (K&K or similar) I just dial it in ahead of time and then make small changes if the board struggles.

As of late I just bring my Boss VE-8 which is what we use for gigs so the EQ is already set and then I've got the notch at my fingertips if needed. I have no experience with the Tonedexter.

[jonfields45]

I have had quite a few different CF guitars over the years (CA, RainSong, Emerald) and installed K&K Pure Minis in many of them (along with various USTs). I also install pickups for friends and have much more wood guitar pickup experience as a result. I also bought and returned a ToneDexter. I never put a K&K in an Emerald.

I don't think there is any difference in how the pickups or ToneDexter perform with CF. I'm not sure why some people report better UST results with CF (maybe low expectations from reading UST criticism on this forum???).

ToneDexter is quite amazing in a quiet setting. I decided for my noisy restaurant venues I could not as easily hear the goodness as my mistake of having the mic too close to the guitar during training which escaped me at home. Also, it was one more pedal to carry.

My one concern with Cyanoacrylate and CF is a possible future removal. Unlike the hard smooth maple bridge plate of a Martin or Taylor, at least for RainSongs, you've got the relatively less smooth CF which might not be razor blade removal friendly. I imagine you could safely soak the pickup heads with acetone for removal, which is not practical for wood.

Jon;

I would think you'd have to be to be very careful with acetone around CF. It might be better to use a curling iron (carefully) to heat the pickup for removal. I'm not sure about any of this., just supposing.

[Gordon Currie]

Thanks for the replies, it looks like there would be no unusual surprises in using a SBT with a CF guitar, just the usual buffer and EQ adjustments which have become second nature to me.

Jon Fields - thanks for the confirmation that there was nothing odd about using the Tonedexter with a CF guitar. I think the reason UST users get great results is that there are many poor USTs out in the field. SBTs tend to sound more natural, so there is less for Tonedexter to correct. In fact, my Dazzo SBT displays less improvement than my K+Ks because it sounds better unprocessed.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Jon;

I would think you'd have to be to be very careful with acetone around CF. It might be better to use a curling iron (carefully) to heat the pickup for removal. I'm not sure about any of this., just supposing.

I'm pretty sure acetone can't hurt epoxy or a modern polymer (polyurethane or polyester) finish, but first I would need to own any guitar long enough for something to fail or wear out...

Jon;

I'm not sure about this, but I believe that acetone is a thinner for epoxy????

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Jon;

I'm not sure about this, but I believe that acetone is a thinner for epoxy????

It can only be thinned prior to hardening. I did check and cured epoxy, unlike cyanoacrylate, will not react with acetone. And there are zero reports I've heard of K&K pickups failing after installation. But plenty of people report removing them because they've changed their minds.

[BT55]

I installed a LR Baggs Anthem in my X20. I found that you have to sand any surfaces that you are attaching to. The “raw” CF on the inside is not a good attachment point. I used a sanding pad and was able to install the microphone, control panel, battery pack and wire hangers with no problems.

[slimey]

Just added a Trance amulet M into a Sable, delighted with the tone I am able to get, so much better than the original piezo. Quack gone and I can bring out the full rich tone of the Sable. Gonna use it Saturday night for a gig so I'll update with how it went later.

[kramster]

Originally Posted by slimey

Just added a Trance amulet M into a Sable, delighted with the tone I am able to get, so much better than the original piezo. Quack gone and I can bring out the full rich tone of the Sable. Gonna use it Saturday night for a gig so I'll update with how it went later.

Good to know..thanks....and tell us how it works out at said gigage.

[slimey]

Gig went very well, a friend made a recording that I have to work out how to download onto here.
Managed a very full sound, had a little trouble getting the high E string to break through the mix when playing leads. I think this is more tweaking the PA and DI setup than the pick up itself.
I've been using the Trance Amulet M for a few years in my main gig guitar , a Lowden O35 and I've always been delighted. The pick up does just as good a job in the Sable at reproducing the guitars natural tone.
I used the feed back buster ( sound hole cover ) that McPherson provides with the instrument and had no issues playing at a volume suitable for a fairly large bar/ restaurant.
In conclusion I'll be very happy using the Sable for gigs , I play in a couple of bands so we're not talking about solo shows in nice small coffee shops here, which would be no challenge for the system at all. This is hanging in with a 6 piece band playing at higher volumes and still keeping the acoustic tone.

A Sable and Trance Amulet M will be a great setup for anyone playing in public amplified or through a PA, one young man about 12 years old, complemented me on my cool all black guitar. Very bright and intelligent young fellow.