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Old 02-07-2010, 02:30 PM
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tdrake tdrake is offline
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Default Small Amp vs Line Array

I've been following the line array discussions for awhile now and feel I have as good a grip on the different units as I can get without ever really having a chance to hear one (lost as i am in ze hinterlands).

What I don't have a grip on is whether they are "that much better" than, say, a 50-100w Ultrasound amp or similar product that I could pick up new or maybe used for, say, about $400-500.

Who's listened to both approaches in a real, live situation?

I liked using my Loudbox 100 for awhile, pointed at the back of my head like a cannon as my monitor, but that was a pretty deafening approach, even tho I never really cranked it *that* much. I sold it because I didn't like it's specefic tone, but I could see going that route again.

Would standing in front of a SoloAmp etc be *that much* different-- enough to justify, say, it being twice as much as an Ultrasound amp?

Any of y'all have real, on the ground, gigging experience comparing the two: small amps vs line array?

Last edited by tdrake; 02-07-2010 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:58 PM
DrDavid DrDavid is offline
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I'm really happy you posted this thread, because that's the very same question I have -- to go the line array direction with BagAmp/Solo Amp/Bose, or instead to invest in one (or two) relatively small acoustic amps.

Like you, I'd love to hear the opinions of those who've had experience testing both approaches.

Thanks.
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:07 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdrake View Post
I've been following the line array discussions for awhile now and feel I have as good a grip on the different units as I can get without ever really having a chance to hear one (lost as i am in ze hinterlands).

What I don't have a grip on is whether they are "that much better" than, say, a 50-100w Ultrasound amp or similar product that I could pick up new or maybe used for, say, about $400-500.

Who's listened to both approaches in a real, live situation?

I like using my Loudbox 100 for awhile, pointed at the back of my head like a cannon as my monitor, but that was a pretty deafening approach, even tho I never really cranked it *that* much. I sold it because I didn't like it's specefic tone, but I could see going that route again.

Would standing in front of a SoloAmp etc be *that much* different-- enough to justify, say, it being twice as much as an Ultrasound amp?

Any of y'all have real, on the ground, gigging experience comparing the two: small amps vs line array?
Having never touched or ever used an Ultrasound product, the following is based only on how your experiences and mine have intersected via the Fishman Loudbox 100:

Something to remember is that the Fishman SoloAmp, which I've owned, is highly portable and is used on a speaker stand, which makes the whole live-sound process quick and easy for setup with easily-directed, good sound projection. It's also an excellent vocal amp--in essence, it's small but quite powerful PA system. I've had a Fishman Loudbox 100 and the SoloAmp is warmer-sounding and with its speaker stand, offers easier live-performance directivity.

I now have a Bose L1 Compact which is an excellent-sounding personal PA system and I'd say it offers better close-proximity performer-monitoring qualities than the Fishman SoloAmp.

If you're considering an Ultrasound amp, which disperses sound in a typical loudspeaker manner, i.e., not line-array, and you're looking for a similar and maybe better sound-dispersion but with more power and super lightweight, consider the QSC K8 being fed with a small mixer with effects. You'll probably want a speaker stand too so you can direct the K8's output to your best advantage.

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Last edited by SpruceTop; 02-07-2010 at 04:51 PM.
  #4  
Old 02-07-2010, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
If you're considering an Ultrasound amp, which disperses sound in a typical loudspeaker manner, i.e., not line-array, and you're looking for a similar and maybe better sound-dispersion but with more power and super lightweight, consider the QSC K8 being fed with a small mixer with effects. You'll probably want a speaker stand too so you can direct the K8's output to your best advantage.
Yeah, I have one of those powered PV12 cabs, tho recently I've noticed that compared to my studio monitors it really colors my vocals, and my vocals need all the help they can get! But when look at the price of the K8 or K10s, I think "hmm...for a bit more I could go line array, and for a bit less I could leave my mixer at home": get a lil amp and run it along with the PV. Or sell the PV and go whole hog up to line array, for a whole lot more.

If it's a whole better, that'd be alright, but if not....

The current setup:


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Old 02-08-2010, 07:16 AM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdrake View Post
I've been following the line array discussions for awhile now and feel I have as good a grip on the different units as I can get without ever really having a chance to hear one (lost as i am in ze hinterlands).

What I don't have a grip on is whether they are "that much better" than, say, a 50-100w Ultrasound amp or similar product that I could pick up new or maybe used for, say, about $400-500.

Who's listened to both approaches in a real, live situation?

I liked using my Loudbox 100 for awhile, pointed at the back of my head like a cannon as my monitor, but that was a pretty deafening approach, even tho I never really cranked it *that* much. I sold it because I didn't like it's specefic tone, but I could see going that route again.

Would standing in front of a SoloAmp etc be *that much* different-- enough to justify, say, it being twice as much as an Ultrasound amp?

Any of y'all have real, on the ground, gigging experience comparing the two: small amps vs line array?
I think you asked three questions:

1. Is there a difference? Yes.
2. Is it worth an extra $200 to $500? That's up to you & how much you value your sound.
3. Does it sound better? It depends on the amps. But all things being equal, yes a line array sounds better.

A line array is a way of configuring the speakers so that the sound projects better. With small speakers, like those used in the BA, SA and any of the Bose L1 systems, the sound will spread out horizontally wider and more evenly than larger speakers will. And because the BA and L1 system I & II are line arrays (the SA and Bose Compact are not), the sound stays very focused vertically -- you don't waste acoustic energy being aimed at the floor and ceiling. The end result is that no matter what your volume level, more of the sound will make it from the front of the room to the back of the room.

First, a refresher on decibels:

1db: The point at which most people can hear a difference in sound. 0db is no sound whatsoever. 1db is the point at which you can hear something.

3db: The power (amplifier) must be doubled to produce a 3db increase. If you set your Loudbox at an output of 100db, it would take two Loudboxes to produce 103db.

10db: This is the level at which most people perceive the sound to be twice as loud.

From a single point speaker, like your Loudbox, the sound will drop 6db every time you double the distance. With a line array, the sound drops only half as much, or 3db.

So if you were to measure the SPL ten feet away from your Loudbox at 100db, if you doubled the distance and took another reading at twenty feet, you should see a 6db drop to 94db. If you wanted to bring the sound level back up to 100db at twenty feet, you'd need four Loudboxes.

Using the same example with a BA or Bose full stick, you'd only see a 3db drop as the distance doubled to twenty feet, and to get back to the original 100db, you'd need two systems.

Note: I'm saying you'd need two systems or four systems, completely ignoring the possibility of having enough reserve at the amp to double the power.

Anyway, line arrays do make a difference. Whether or not it's worth the expense is up to you, and whether or not a BA or Bose L1 sounds better than an Ultrasound is again up to you.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
I think you asked three questions:

1. Is there a difference? Yes.
2. Is it worth an extra $200 to $500? That's up to you & how much you value your sound.
3. Does it sound better? It depends on the amps. But all things being equal, yes a line array sounds better.
You definitely framed my question(s) better than I did, and answered them well. Sadly, I think a line array fits my needs to a t.

In the end I reckon it really comes down to #2. Hmmm....

Thanks!
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:48 AM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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I posted before, then shut the computer down and got ready for work. On my drive in, I started thinking about the post and realized there's a problem with it.

The part about 1,3, and 10 decibels is correct and can easily be verified by anyone who cares to. However, the second part about 6db vs. 3db for doubling the distance doesn't seem to hold up. (I had read that somewhere, it seemed to make sense, and it wound up in my post.)

Doubling the distance and taking readings make sense. It also fits my experience when we compared a BA, SA & Shertler David with a SPL meter. But what happens if you double the distance again? And then double it again? It'd start to look something like this:

.........................Single Point..........Line Array
Distance in feet.......SPL in Db...........SPL in Db
3...............................100............... ....100
6.................................94.............. ......97
12...............................88............... .....94
24...............................82............... .....91
48...............................76............... .....88
96...............................70............... .....85
192.............................64................ ....82
384.............................58................ ....79
768.............................52................ ....76
1536...........................46................. ...73
3072...........................40................. ...70
6144...........................34................. ...67

It's hard to format the columns here, but hopefully you get the idea: starting with 100db at 3 feet and then progressively doubling the distance to a ridiculous point (over a mile away), while reducing the single point by 6db and the line array by 3 db at each interval.

When we ran our non-perfect "test", the single-source speakers (Schertler & SA) fell off about 8 db at distances of 3 to 30 feet, while the BA fell off about 6db at the same distance. According to the above, the difference between line array and non-line array should have been about 9db. The actual (non-scientific) results we got were about 2db.

Hopefully someone with a thorough understanding of line arrays will be able to better explain the difference. In the meantime, I think I'd change my answer to "Yes, there's a difference, but I don't have the know-how to tell you exactly what the difference would be."
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:25 AM
DrDavid DrDavid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
I posted before, then shut the computer down and got ready for work. On my drive in, I started thinking about the post and realized there's a problem with it.

The part about 1,3, and 10 decibels is correct and can easily be verified by anyone who cares to. However, the second part about 6db vs. 3db for doubling the distance doesn't seem to hold up. (I had read that somewhere, it seemed to make sense, and it wound up in my post.)

Doubling the distance and taking readings make sense. It also fits my experience when we compared a BA, SA & Shertler David with a SPL meter. But what happens if you double the distance again? And then double it again? It'd start to look something like this:

.........................Single Point..........Line Array
Distance in feet.......SPL in Db...........SPL in Db
3...............................100............... ....100
6.................................94.............. ......97
12...............................88............... .....94
24...............................82............... .....91
48...............................76............... .....88
96...............................70............... .....85
192.............................64................ ....82
384.............................58................ ....79
768.............................52................ ....76
1536...........................46................. ...73
3072...........................40................. ...70
6144...........................34................. ...67

It's hard to format the columns here, but hopefully you get the idea: starting with 100db at 3 feet and then progressively doubling the distance to a ridiculous point (over a mile away), while reducing the single point by 6db and the line array by 3 db at each interval.

When we ran our non-perfect "test", the single-source speakers (Schertler & SA) fell off about 8 db at distances of 3 to 30 feet, while the BA fell off about 6db at the same distance. According to the above, the difference between line array and non-line array should have been about 9db. The actual (non-scientific) results we got were about 2db.

Hopefully someone with a thorough understanding of line arrays will be able to better explain the difference. In the meantime, I think I'd change my answer to "Yes, there's a difference, but I don't have the know-how to tell you exactly what the difference would be."
Very interesting information indeed! Thanks so much for posting that.

Could it be that the difference between "theoretical" drop-offs in SPL at distance, and the values you actually measured, was influenced to a large extent by how much reflectiveness existed in the acoustics of the room you used?

Just seems to me that room acoustics will play a huge role in how much sound reaches forward to distance intervals.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:27 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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The opening post asks for impressions of the differences between two types of systems based on real world experiences. The problem is that their is too much of a difference between some of the systems to make a meaningful comparison. The SoloAmp is not a true line array so that leaves the Bose systems and the BagAmp. Depending on which line array system one has in mind and which acoustic amp, one could be comparing a 4-speaker, 50-watt amplifier (Ultrasound DS4) to a 26 speaker PA with 10 times the amplifier power (Bose L1 Model II). Most people might wonder about the DS4 versus L1 Compact because in the Compact's collapsed configuration they are similar in size but the BagAmp is less expensive.

Ultrasound DS4 $450......................Bose L1 Compact $999 ...........................BagAmp $700
4 speakers.......................7 speakers.......................8 speakers
50-watt amplifier................130-watt amplifier...............220 watt amplifier
26 lbs...........................24.6 lbs.........................25.4 lbs
18"W x 14"H x 11"D...............13.25"W x 16.5"H x 16.75"D...... 3.4"W x 36"H x 8.2"D


The DS4 will have a much narrower horizontal dispersion than the Compact and the volume drop off as the distance between the DS4 and the listener increases will be much greater than the drop off of the Compact. All of this is to say that the performance of a conventional acoustic amp and that of a true line array is not comparable. Whether the price difference is justifiable depends on each individual, the anticipated venues where the equipment will be used and the sound quality standards of the user. I haven't tried the BagAmp but I'd rather pay the difference and have the Bose Compact over the DS4. Someone else whose tried both would say it is senseless to pay the difference.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:38 AM
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Having used both, I will say this. The line arrays (Bose in my experience) represent a much smoother dispersion and make it much easier to reach a room at comfortable volumes.

As far as sound - you still need to EQ properly for the room. I find that the Bose array I use requires less EQ and the sound changes less as a listener moves off axis (since the axis is something like 160 degrees, verses a typical 30 degree axis for speakers).
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:43 AM
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Herb, you bring up some good points. Just one thing -- the Bose Compact is not a line array. The compact only has 6 speakers in the "stick", and no two of them are pointed in the same direction:



That's not to say that the Compact isn't a nice system, because it is. But if you want a Bose line array, you have to go with the L1 version I or II.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDavid View Post
Very interesting information indeed! Thanks so much for posting that.

Could it be that the difference between "theoretical" drop-offs in SPL at distance, and the values you actually measured, was influenced to a large extent by how much reflectiveness existed in the acoustics of the room you used?

Just seems to me that room acoustics will play a huge role in how much sound reaches forward to distance intervals.
Yes, I'm sure room acoustics had an effect on our measurements. I can't really say how much of a factor it was, but I'm certain that was part of what we were hearing.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:10 PM
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Good picture of the top of the Bose FP. I pointed that out to the gang that tested the amps at my lil test thingy.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:25 PM
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I don't think the OP is discounting the SoloAmp or the Bose Compact. Even though they are not considered "true line array" they have been in every thread that I have read concerning these "types" of units. The fact that the OP mentions the SoloAmp in the original thread suggests to me that he would like real world performance experience of any of these units in comparison to a small amp.

I'm still on the fence and presently recuperating from a physical and financial mishap so I haven't made my way out yet to do a comparison in person. I was once looking to go the small PA route (and maybe Aloha Chris can still sway me) but the SA has been a strong contender all along for me and I am impressed with the latest comparisons of the Compact. (Jack seems to still be too busy to get back to me and I wasn't impressed at all with any sound clips I've heard anyway.) No matter what I decide, I am definitely intrigued by the volume up close factor and one of these units will most likely win out over a small PA or small amp for me.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:51 PM
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Bob, I'm not discounting or ruling out the SA or the Compact.

The title of the thread is "Small Amp vs. Line Array". There are only two contenders for line arrays, that's BagAmp and Bose full sticks. (You could call that three since Bose offers version I and II.)

If the OP likes the sound of the SoloAmp or Ultrasound better than the line array offerings, then he might want to buy what he likes. There's nothing wrong with that. But just because the BA has been compared (a lot) to the SA and Compact does not mean that the SA and Compact are line arrays.

If I was going to base my buying decision on nothing other than what people here tell me I should like, I don't know what I'd buy - there are too many conflicting opinions. If I was going to base my buying decision on nothing other than Kramster's comparison videos, it'd be easy -- I'd buy the Bose Compact. In the videos, I thought the Compact smoked the other two systems.

But owning one of the systems and having played through the two others*, I'd suggest trying these systems first hand, hopefully side-by-side, because all three of them sound different (better) than what you saw in the videos.

The OP asked about line arrays. Line arrays project sound better. That's the difference. It does not mean that it'll sound better, only that the sound, good, bad, or whatever, will do a better job of reaching the whole audience.

* Disclaimer: I played through the Bose L1 v.I, not the compact.
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