Help - Nylon - Classical?

[Atomnimity]

Gave my granddaughter my Taylor GS Mini Hog last year for her to start her music classes. She is 11 about to be 12. I recently checked to see how things were going because she had been waiting on an evaluation on her music placement for next year. Well she was moved up three levels to Honors. I then learned the GS Mini might be too - shall we say - pronounced for the group she was playing with and she might need something that wasn't steel string. I immediately thought Classical but after more digging I noticed many if not most acoustic guitar makers have nylon string models. Who knew?

Would you mind educating me on the difference between Nylon models from like Martin and Taylor and classical guitars. I am assuming there are some nuances. Trying to figure some of this out before I send them to a guitar store.

Thanks!

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by Atomnimity

Gave my granddaughter my Taylor GS Mini Hog last year for her to start her music classes. She is 11 about to be 12. I recently checked to see how things were going because she had been waiting on an evaluation on her music placement for next year. Well she was moved up three levels to Honors. I then learned the GS Mini might be too - shall we say - pronounced for the group she was playing with and she might need something that wasn't steel string. I immediately thought Classical but after more digging I noticed many if not most acoustic guitar makers have nylon string models. Who knew?

Would you mind educating me on the difference between Nylon models from like Martin and Taylor and classical guitars. I am assuming there are some nuances. Trying to figure some of this out before I send them to a guitar store.

Thanks!

There's nothing wrong with introducing her to nylon string guitars. They are wonderful but different. But I wouldn't replace the GS Mini with one. The group shouldn't force the guitar choice.

Look at the Taylor Academy series. They have a nylon model.

[rmp]

for the "elevator pitch" The biggest differences are most often the size/profile of the neck.

A traditional classical guitar will have a pretty wide and fat neck, which might not be a good fit for small hands at the onset.

there is a type of classical known as "crossover". These have smaller more narrow necks, not quite like a steel string, but not like a traditional classical either.

I'm not much of a Martin follower, so I know little about their nylon string models.

I have a few Taylors, and one of them is a 500 series nylon. It's the 5th nylon string guitar I've purchased, and it will be my last. It fits me perfectly. All the others either had intonation problems or the neck was just too fat and wide for my liking.

The neck profile is much smaller than my last Nylon (Spanish Made Manual Rodriguez)

for a few makers to consider,, I would for sure look at Taylors. they have a nylon string model in I think in every model tier they produce, also look at some from Cordoba, Yamaha, and Takamine

I'm sure there are plenty of other responses coming..

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by rmp

A traditional classical guitar will have a pretty wide and fat neck, which might not be a good fit for small hands at the onset..... there is a type of classical known as "crossover". These have smaller more narrow necks, not quite like a steel string, but not like a traditional classical either.
The neck profile is much smaller than my last Nylon (Spanish Made Manual Rodriguez)

A true classical has a chunky neck with a 2" or 2-1/8" wide nut and a flat fret board. A crossover has a slimmer radiused neck and a 1-7/8" nut width, so it feels much more like a steel string guitar. The action is noticeably higher too, since nylon strings vibrate through a much wider arc. Ditto on the Taylor Academy 12-N if she must use a nylon string guitar to blend in. It is approximately the same size as a classical body but has a crossover neck. And I too would keep the GS Mini. On her own outside of class she might develop a preference for steel string.

Thinking outside the box, what about trying a set of ball-end nylon strings temporarily on the GS Mini? It will not sound ideal, since the guitar is braced for way more string tension. But for the price of a set of strings it is a fairly cheap experiment (I've done it on an old Silvertone). If it works and you want to convert over more permanently, then a new nut cut for nylon strings will be needed.

[Atomnimity]

Thanks guys - this is why I like this forum. She will definitely keep the GS Mini or I will be reclaiming it.

Is there a difference in a classical crossover and a nylon acoustic model? I also think the 2"+ neck width might be a bit much. Im warming on the idea of a Taylor (seems like more model options). Ill also look at the Yamaha and Takamine.

Jim

[Alan Carruth]

Nylon strings carry less tension than steel. In order to get more sound they tend to use higher action. Between that and the 'looser' strings you need to have a bit more space in between strings to be able to fret cleanly. Every time I've seen somebody get a nylon string guitar with a nut less than 1-3/4" they've been unhappy. It's hard to make a neck wider.....

OTOH, if your grand daughter has small hands there are ways to accommodate that. Classical players don't use 'thumb over' technique in the left hand nearly as much as steel string players, and some of the real 'snobs' eschew it entirely. It's easy enough to make a new nut with the string notches moved a bit toward the treble side if she really has trouble reaching all the way across, and it won't cause problems with playing technique. If her hands get bigger, as they may, she can go back to the original nut.

The 'crossover' models are often meant to be amplified, and some don't even have a sound hole. They often have a shallower body (and less 'full' bass tone) and a cutaway. Again, in part because of the difference in left hand technique, classical players are not nearly as interested in cutaways as steel string players are.

Classical fret boards are not always dead flat; in fact, many of us feel that's a mistake. Over time fretboards shrink and try to get narrower. BEing glued down, they can't, so instead they just curl up at the edges, which makes the surface concave. Trying to play barre chords on a fretboard like that will wreck your hands in a hurry. Some classical makers these days make the fretboards slightly arched; maybe a 24"-26" radius. It makes barre chords a lot easier, and saves problems down the road.

Swapping out strings is not usually a good way to see how you feel about nylon strings. The strings are the change between steel and nylon strung guitars that drive all the other differences. And it's not just the tension. Nylon strings have a lot less energy in the high frequencies, particularly in the sustained tone, and they also tend to die out quicker anyway after they're plucked. For a maker, the main design issue on a steel string is getting enough low end to balance out the highs, and that's relatively easy: you make the box bigger. On a nylon string guitar you have to get the most out of the small amount of treble the strings give you, and that's harder. Light construction and smaller size helps, but the maker also has to pay more attention to the way the top works.

A classical player I know onc tried some of his repertoire on a wide necked steel string. He said it was like listening to Julie Andrews in 'The Sound of Music': "...there's no darkness!" A classical player can brighten up the sound (to the extent the guitar will allow for it), but there's not much a steel string player can do to make the sound darker. Classical players learn to exploit that wider range of timbres that is hard to get on even a very good steel string.

[Villamarzia]

I think it could be a good idea to bring the young lady to a guitar shop and try some classical guitars, maybe in the size of 7/8 as well as crossovers. Children/teens tend to develop less calluses on their fingertips and playing steel strings can be quite painful. Usually, a common reaction of people playing nylon for the first time is "I can play longer and enjoy more", provided they acclimate to the wider and flat fingerboard. The best would be to own and play both, which might develop also her musical abilities in a wider perspective. They absorb art like sponges at such a young age! Take a look also at Cordoba, they sound good and the price is quite right.

[Atomnimity]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Nylon strings carry less tension than steel. In order to get more sound they tend to use higher action. Between that and the 'looser' strings you need to have a bit more space in between strings to be able to fret cleanly. Every time I've seen somebody get a nylon string guitar with a nut less than 1-3/4" they've been unhappy. It's hard to make a neck wider.....

OTOH, if your grand daughter has small hands there are ways to accommodate that. Classical players don't use 'thumb over' technique in the left hand nearly as much as steel string players, and some of the real 'snobs' eschew it entirely. It's easy enough to make a new nut with the string notches moved a bit toward the treble side if she really has trouble reaching all the way across, and it won't cause problems with playing technique. If her hands get bigger, as they may, she can go back to the original nut.

The 'crossover' models are often meant to be amplified, and some don't even have a sound hole. They often have a shallower body (and less 'full' bass tone) and a cutaway. Again, in part because of the difference in left hand technique, classical players are not nearly as interested in cutaways as steel string players are.

Classical fret boards are not always dead flat; in fact, many of us feel that's a mistake. Over time fretboards shrink and try to get narrower. BEing glued down, they can't, so instead they just curl up at the edges, which makes the surface concave. Trying to play barre chords on a fretboard like that will wreck your hands in a hurry. Some classical makers these days make the fretboards slightly arched; maybe a 24"-26" radius. It makes barre chords a lot easier, and saves problems down the road.

Swapping out strings is not usually a good way to see how you feel about nylon strings. The strings are the change between steel and nylon strung guitars that drive all the other differences. And it's not just the tension. Nylon strings have a lot less energy in the high frequencies, particularly in the sustained tone, and they also tend to die out quicker anyway after they're plucked. For a maker, the main design issue on a steel string is getting enough low end to balance out the highs, and that's relatively easy: you make the box bigger. On a nylon string guitar you have to get the most out of the small amount of treble the strings give you, and that's harder. Light construction and smaller size helps, but the maker also has to pay more attention to the way the top works.

A classical player I know onc tried some of his repertoire on a wide necked steel string. He said it was like listening to Julie Andrews in 'The Sound of Music': "...there's no darkness!" A classical player can brighten up the sound (to the extent the guitar will allow for it), but there's not much a steel string player can do to make the sound darker. Classical players learn to exploit that wider range of timbres that is hard to get on even a very good steel string.

Very informative! Thank you!

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

I think it could be a good idea to bring the young lady to a guitar shop and try some classical guitars, maybe in the size of 7/8 as well as crossovers. Children/teens tend to develop less calluses on their fingertips and playing steel strings can be quite painful. Usually, a common reaction of people playing nylon for the first time is "I can play longer and enjoy more", provided they acclimate to the wider and flat fingerboard. The best would be to own and play both, which might develop also her musical abilities in a wider perspective. They absorb art like sponges at such a young age! Take a look also at Cordoba, they sound good and the price is quite right.

You read my mind. She is not located in my area which is fine because there is next to nothing as far as shops or inventory where I am. She however is in a large city so I have been searching shops I could get my daughter to take her for a look. ...and I hope and believe she will keep the GS Mini.

Jim

[Gcunplugged]

My question would be; does her group play actual classical style, or are they just using nylon to play Pop, Folk, Country etc?

If they play classical, then classical it is. Just make sure, as other posters have mentioned, to get a classical that is not too wide for her hands.

If the latter, then I’d highly recommend a crossover, and for my money, Córdoba offers the most bang for the buck. I own two of them. Their crossover models are referred to as the “Fusion” line, and typically have a 48mm nut, which translates to 1.89in.

For me, that is as narrow as I’d want to go on nylon because (as noted by others), they do tend to move around on you, unless you come down perfectly straight on the strings.

Just my 2c worth,
Gary

[hat]

as to changing strings on the GS Mini, you could also try Silk and Steel folk strings. They would also tame down the tone without the issues that classical strings would present on it.

[icuker]

I put silk and steel on my Taylor 314ce and like it. It plays much easier than when I had medium phosphor bronze on it. Gives it a classical feel to me anyway. Someone mentioned that another option is silk and bronze. But at any rate I recommend trying it at least. I am happy.