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Old 01-04-2022, 04:49 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Default Microphones used in "Get Back"

About half way through the new Documentary of Beatles " Get Back" My gracious brother bought me a month subscriptions to Disney for Christmas so I could watch it.
A wave of emotions comes over me watching this Docu.
+Seeing that the Beatles were closely similar to their Hard Days Night & Help Movies characters...is a big relief. The brotherhood they displayed certainly made me want to join a band and have that same kind of feeling.
+ Seeing how their songs evolved...from silliness-madness to success. Was also a big relief. No one creates a writes a perfect melody and song at an instant. Not even the Beatles.
Here is what in particular I would like to know
1.The Sound. I am hoping some of veteran engineers on AGF, might chime in on some of the microphones and how they were able to get good sound in what seemed like untreated room and almost no isolation.
2. The KM56...a nickle small diaphragm condenser was used a lot. We see both McCartney and Lennon singing right on top of this mic. As a tube SCD...Why don't we hear Capsule Distortion with this mic? Surely the small capsule must have maxed out with some of the heavy singing? In the Photo's they had a round Ball windscreen attached. I believe the KM54 was also used.
3. The STC4021 mic. this was a mic that was taped to the Shure microphone. What was the purpose of taping two together? Both were Dynamic. How were they using these two in conjunction? The head of this mic is certainly unusual. Flat-wide screen.
http://www.coutant.org/stc/4037/4037.pdf
4. I am surprised that also another Dynamic mic was used for the Boom mic. I hear that this mic..The AKG D25 was popular at the time for boom in Television. What made this mic a preferred mic for boom?
https://www.akg.com/on/demandware.st...e/pdfs/D25.pdf
5. And finally the long thin AKG C30. The ones used on the roof top as well with the long Goosenecks. I could find little information on those except that they used a C28 capsule. How did they differ in sound and use.
6. And what emotions- thoughts on how the Documentary effected you and your perceptions of recording and writing? What did you discover about the Beatles Journey? I know this is not Recording data necessarily per se. But rather the journey of recording itself. Thus I include it as part of the questions.
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Old 01-05-2022, 03:14 AM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default I Had The Same Emotion, K&G!

Aloha Knives & Guitars,

A Mainland musician friend turned me on to that Beatles documentary on Disney Plus in early December. I watched it all the way through, what six hours?, three or four times! Three two-hour segments! Outstanding!

It Filled in so many of the blanks we all had at the time! Made me miss being a young 20-something gigging musician in those incredibly creative days, & hanging around "happening" studios (parties basically) all the time. And it made me feel so glad & grateful that this series was put together & shared with the world 52 years later! Absolutely must viewing, guys - young & old! Real history, with incredible HD editing & audio.

It felt like we were right there in that "living room" with The Lads, the gals, the videographers, genius Martin, the toadies & wannabe's! The way they all related, all so familiar, even with the natural pressures building within each Beatle that are part of 'growing up all the way in our late 20's' as guys to start having our own families. It was simply our turn & the Beatles were no exception.

Yoko & Linda were so universally maligned for "breaking up the Beatles." What shibai! Watching them interact with one another was a revelation. They were different. But they were friends, no tension at all!

It was time for a pent-up, fed-up George to put together HIS songs in "All Things Must Pass," perhaps the greatest Beatles album of all.

Time for John Lennon's more social ideas with his mate, Yoko. And his larger vision of what his platform could do.

Ringo was the glue of this amazing band. Still is. He loved being in the Beatles. Can you believe how good he looks today at 81!?!

And even though he tried his best to hide it & still be one of the Liverpool Lads, Paul's incredible genius, his thirst for freedom, his own band & family with Linda, & his obviously pressing need to finish that last damm final Beatles project was so evident in this series.

It captured ALL the dialog honestly. Paul couldn't say anything right, especially to George Harrison, at the end. So he basically finished the project on his own, playing all the instruments on "Carry That Weight" at the end & "The moving Long & Winding Road" finale. But Paul was also head & shoulders the genius in that amazing group. His life has played that out. What a show K&G!

I paid for two months of Disney+ ($8.99/mo.) just so I could watch it again & again. I just cancelled the subscription because I'm not really a 'Walt Disney kind of guy' anymore at 75.

RE: Those incredible vintage mic's they used. Thank you for getting all those pictures of the classics. I was lucky enough to have owned both the KM-56 & KM-54 at one time. When "I Saw her (KM-56) Standing There (sorry), my eyes filled with tears. For me, that KM-56 was the one "greatest" guitar mic 'that got away.' But like the M-G M295 SDC, that nickle diaphragm behaved very inconsistently in Hawaii's humidity. Like a fool, I traded the KM-56 pair for some other great mic's (can't remember which). This was in the late 80's.

The AKG C30 is another mic I'd forgotten about. Again, love the pix, K&G!

Wow, this thread's got me all riled up, the memories are as thick as thieves. Sheesh!

One last thing. Weren't the Beatles just the coolest guys, K&G? So smart! Such cool individuals. But they knew how to work together, when to work & when to play. Of course, paying for weeks of studio time was no problem foe them. Ha! They weren't the types of young men by that time to grind away anymore. It was more balanced than I'd imagined.

I tell you, I would have loved to hang with The Lads just once. This helped me do that. I would love to be a younger man like that again - that 'fully in control sense of your own power.' Many days to come power? And this documentary brought it all back.

Guyus, If you haven't had the chance to see thias Beatles ducumentary series yet? Please, Buy a month of Disney Plus & check it out. Such a revelation - even those vintage mic's - Ha!

Mahalo a nui as always, Knives & Guns for your unique take on things & surprising amount of experience in many facets of this shared passion of ours you share. I'm glad your eye caught those vintage mic's!

It reminded me that Life at that age is like the opening chord of "A Hard Day's Night!"- It's actually three Beatles on parts of the same strange chord.

First, John played a D Sus 4. It's a regular first position Dmaj chord with the pinky on the high G note at the third fret of the high first E string, & the thumb rolling over the neck on that low F# bass note of the low E string, second fret. John played it on his Rickenbacker 325 12-string, of course.

Next, Paul played a single low D bass note on his Hofner Violin Bass to round out the chord bottom.

Finally, George played his 360 Rickenbacker 12-string and added a weird, first-position F chord, with the pinky on that same G note of the first string at the third fret, and his thumb weirdly stretched over & up the narrow neck, playing the low G note at the third fret of the low 6th string, (try that one!) Together, it created one of the most creative, dramatic & memorable chords in history. And it took three Beatles to pull it off!

So Full of passion & promise for the future they were then, working on all creative cyclinders. Irrepressible! Wow! The Beatles! What a doucumentary series! Mahalo nui for the memories, Knives & Guitars!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 01-05-2022 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 01-05-2022, 11:00 AM
jricc jricc is offline
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Hey alohachris, I've read that George Martin played a piano note on that thunderous opening as well. A low G or D? I can't remember, but the overtones from the piano contributed to that too. Brilliant!

Sorry to sidetrack thread Knives&Guitars
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Old 01-05-2022, 11:18 AM
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A theory explaining one question: the multiple mics taped together sort of thing often is explained by different folks/purposes recording the same event. So a mic for the filmmakers/documentarians and a mic for the music recordings.
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Old 01-05-2022, 03:21 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha Knives & Guitars,

RE: Those incredible vintage mic's they used. Thank you for getting all those pictures of the classics. I was lucky enough to have owned both the KM-56 & KM-54 at one time. For me, that KM-56 was the one "greatest" guitar mic 'that got away.' But like the M-G M295 SDC, that nickle diaphragm behaved very inconsistently in Hawaii's humidity. Like a fool, I traded the KM-56 pair for some other great mic's (can't remember which). This was in the late 80's.

I tell you, I would have loved to hang with The Lads just once. This helped me do that. I would love to be a younger man like that again - that 'fully in control sense of your own power.' Many days to come power? And this documentary brought it all back.
alohachris
Absolutely Brilliant Observations AlohaChris! So much so that I have read through your post three times now.
I can only watch so much of it at a time...because, it does stir up such emotions and is so revealing. Hope to finish it by Next week.
A couple of things that I thought were lovely: Ringo said something to the effect of " I could listen to Paul play piano all day". And how Ringo was so into watching his bandmates create.
So could you enlighten us a bit more on the KM56 & 54?
*What did those mics bring to the table in Acoustic guitar Recordings?
*How are they different from Schoeps?
*And just how similar are they to Gefells Nickle mics, the 295 and 296's?
And finally, why did those capsules not distort when Paul's vibrant voice was screaming into them? As a small Capsule I would have thought that it would have distorted and picked up quite a bit of sibilance at that close distance.?
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Old 01-05-2022, 03:38 PM
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A theory explaining one question: the multiple mics taped together sort of thing often is explained by different folks/purposes recording the same event. So a mic for the filmmakers/documentarians and a mic for the music recordings.

That surprised me when I saw it, as I immediately thought of the phase cancellation trick. I've used it, but I thought it was pioneered by the Grateful Dead, which would have been a bit later. But then I realized - and I saw some others saying online, that it was one mic for music recording, a 2nd for the documentary guys, which made sense.
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Old 01-05-2022, 04:06 PM
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That surprised me when I saw it, as I immediately thought of the phase cancellation trick. I've used it, but I thought it was pioneered by the Grateful Dead, which would have been a bit later. But then I realized - and I saw some others saying online, that it was one mic for music recording, a 2nd for the documentary guys, which made sense.
Yes I watched a doc. about the Dead and I believe they said they used that trick to fight feedback when they were performing in front of the Wall of Sound...
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Old 01-05-2022, 04:29 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by alohachris View Post

I tell you, I would have loved to hang with The Lads just once.

alohachris
I forgot to mention,
Wings Came to LA with their Wings over America Tour in 1976. A die hard Beatle fan, one of my closest friends at the time...Called me up and said " We got to go see McCartney"
But atlas, all the Tickets were sold out instantly. LA, even at that time...could be hard place to get tickets. Never the Less, he insisted we go down and try and get tickets outside the concert. I immediately agreed at the chance to see him play. A Girlfriend of the both of us...heard that we were going to go and begged us to take her. Just A friend...but a friend for a long time. We told her. " Hey, we have no tickets...and we are not even sure if we can find tickets for ourselves. " After she pleaded a little bit more...all three of headed down to the stadium.
We were able to pick up one ticket when we got there. We were just hanging out in the parking lot and started talking to this one guy...and it turned out he was Paul's Road manager. He handed us some prime tickets and said...if you sell 7 of these 8 tickets I will give you the 8th ticket free. We Sold 6, bought the 7th and then got the 8th ticket for free. Our girlfriend did not have the money to pay for these higher priced tickets. And we had already purchased another one from someone standing outside...so she got that one.
Little did we know just how good those seats were. We sat next to Paul's Road manager...and just behind us was Cher and Elton John. And Ringo came up on stage at Paul's last number and just stood and took bows. Paul and Ringo skipped off stage together.
The Road manager turned to us and said." Want to come back Stage and hang out with Paul and Ringo?"
Oh My! it was the long before Cellphones. We had no way of contacting our GirlFriend who was seated on the other side of the auditorium. With Thousands and thousands of people...she only knew how to get back to our car. And if we left the Stadium, we could not get back in. We knew she had already left the stadium.
Chivalry, Stopped us from leaving her behind. So very regrettably, we had to turn down those back stage passes.
Oddly, it did not bother me too much. After all, there would have been lots and lots of famous people back there. I most certainly would not have broken in on any conversation he would have been having with the other greats. So I would have been nothing more that a wallflower. and observing..which...still would have been nice....but I was o.k with it. Chivalry and not leaving our friend to fend for herself, miles from home, late at night..would have been so wrong.
Just one of those missed opportunities. haha. And that is o.k..I have had my chance with others. On a one to one basis. Mike Pinder of the Moody Blues I got to have a lovely conversation with one year( as we both owned Mellotrons-Chamberlains at the time.) And I worked at a High end Stereo and Camera Store in the 80's and 90's and got some good one on one conversations with others, such as Eddie Van Halen.
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Old 01-06-2022, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
I forgot to mention,
Wings Came to LA with their Wings over America Tour in 1976. A die hard Beatle fan, one of my closest friends at the time...Called me up and said " We got to go see McCartney"
But atlas, all the Tickets were sold out instantly. LA, even at that time...could be hard place to get tickets. Never the Less, he insisted we go down and try and get tickets outside the concert. I immediately agreed at the chance to see him play. A Girlfriend of the both of us...heard that we were going to go and begged us to take her. Just A friend...but a friend for a long time. We told her. " Hey, we have no tickets...and we are not even sure if we can find tickets for ourselves. " After she pleaded a little bit more...all three of headed down to the stadium.
We were able to pick up one ticket when we got there. We were just hanging out in the parking lot and started talking to this one guy...and it turned out he was Paul's Road manager. He handed us some prime tickets and said...if you sell 7 of these 8 tickets I will give you the 8th ticket free. We Sold 6, bought the 7th and then got the 8th ticket for free. Our girlfriend did not have the money to pay for these higher priced tickets. And we had already purchased another one from someone standing outside...so she got that one.
Little did we know just how good those seats were. We sat next to Paul's Road manager...and just behind us was Cher and Elton John. And Ringo came up on stage at Paul's last number and just stood and took bows. Paul and Ringo skipped off stage together.
The Road manager turned to us and said." Want to come back Stage and hang out with Paul and Ringo?"
Oh My! it was the long before Cellphones. We had no way of contacting our GirlFriend who was seated on the other side of the auditorium. With Thousands and thousands of people...she only knew how to get back to our car. And if we left the Stadium, we could not get back in. We knew she had already left the stadium.
Chivalry, Stopped us from leaving her behind. So very regrettably, we had to turn down those back stage passes.
Oddly, it did not bother me too much. After all, there would have been lots and lots of famous people back there. I most certainly would not have broken in on any conversation he would have been having with the other greats. So I would have been nothing more that a wallflower. and observing..which...still would have been nice....but I was o.k with it. Chivalry and not leaving our friend to fend for herself, miles from home, late at night..would have been so wrong.
Just one of those missed opportunities. haha. And that is o.k..I have had my chance with others. On a one to one basis. Mike Pinder of the Moody Blues I got to have a lovely conversation with one year( as we both owned Mellotrons-Chamberlains at the time.) And I worked at a High end Stereo and Camera Store in the 80's and 90's and got some good one on one conversations with others, such as Eddie Van Halen.
What a great story
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Old 01-06-2022, 01:59 PM
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I may not recall exactly correct, but what stuck with me the most….the part where Paul started humming and mumbling while playing his guitar, then the chorus “Get Back”starts to emerge, then the verse guitar and more melody mumbling…

Next thing you know 3 minutes or so and the title track comes into existence.

Sorry not about the mics, but it was so beautiful to see the process I had to mention it.
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Old 01-06-2022, 08:16 PM
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I may not recall exactly correct, but what stuck with me the most….the part where Paul started humming and mumbling while playing his guitar, then the chorus “Get Back”starts to emerge, then the verse guitar and more melody mumbling…

Next thing you know 3 minutes or so and the title track comes into existence.

Sorry not about the mics, but it was so beautiful to see the process I had to mention it.
I have a Beatles bootleg I got at college in the 70s... I haven't listened
to it in a long time, I remember a good part where Paul was teaching
Let It Be to the others, calling out the chords... perhaps that is in the
new Film?

-Mike
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Old 01-06-2022, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
I forgot to mention,
Wings Came to LA with their Wings over America Tour in 1976. A die hard Beatle fan, one of my closest friends at the time...Called me up and said " We got to go see McCartney"
But atlas, all the Tickets were sold out instantly. LA, even at that time...could be hard place to get tickets. Never the Less, he insisted we go down and try and get tickets outside the concert. I immediately agreed at the chance to see him play. A Girlfriend of the both of us...heard that we were going to go and begged us to take her. Just A friend...but a friend for a long time. We told her. " Hey, we have no tickets...and we are not even sure if we can find tickets for ourselves. " After she pleaded a little bit more...all three of headed down to the stadium.
We were able to pick up one ticket when we got there. We were just hanging out in the parking lot and started talking to this one guy...and it turned out he was Paul's Road manager. He handed us some prime tickets and said...if you sell 7 of these 8 tickets I will give you the 8th ticket free. We Sold 6, bought the 7th and then got the 8th ticket for free. Our girlfriend did not have the money to pay for these higher priced tickets. And we had already purchased another one from someone standing outside...so she got that one.
Little did we know just how good those seats were. We sat next to Paul's Road manager...and just behind us was Cher and Elton John. And Ringo came up on stage at Paul's last number and just stood and took bows. Paul and Ringo skipped off stage together.
The Road manager turned to us and said." Want to come back Stage and hang out with Paul and Ringo?"
Oh My! it was the long before Cellphones. We had no way of contacting our GirlFriend who was seated on the other side of the auditorium. With Thousands and thousands of people...she only knew how to get back to our car. And if we left the Stadium, we could not get back in. We knew she had already left the stadium.
Chivalry, Stopped us from leaving her behind. So very regrettably, we had to turn down those back stage passes.
Oddly, it did not bother me too much. After all, there would have been lots and lots of famous people back there. I most certainly would not have broken in on any conversation he would have been having with the other greats. So I would have been nothing more that a wallflower. and observing..which...still would have been nice....but I was o.k with it. Chivalry and not leaving our friend to fend for herself, miles from home, late at night..would have been so wrong.
Just one of those missed opportunities. haha. And that is o.k..I have had my chance with others. On a one to one basis. Mike Pinder of the Moody Blues I got to have a lovely conversation with one year( as we both owned Mellotrons-Chamberlains at the time.) And I worked at a High end Stereo and Camera Store in the 80's and 90's and got some good one on one conversations with others, such as Eddie Van Halen.
Whoa Knives&Guitars, that is an amazing story, and good on you for not leaving your friend behind...
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Old 01-07-2022, 12:42 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Somehow, I foolishly neglected to mention the invaluable U87?U/67's that were used.
Their Value on Acoustic guitar becomes especially apparent when we see-hear Lennon & McCartney standing while recording their acoustics for the final version. Smooth, real and upfront . Not sure if they were U87's or 67's?
I Bought a brand new U87 back in the mid 70's. I sold it when I thought I was out of the music game back in the early 2000's. At that time I was not playing much and thought I would never get back into recording.
While I love my Small Diaphragm Schoeps..for their quicker response and full frequency capture, there is no denying just how smooth my u87 was on Acoustic Guitar.
In those days I knew little about the importance of mic placement, and preamps(used a cheap mixer into 4 tract reel to reel Teac). I Just always got a smooth ready to go sound with my U87. Always thought the 87 was a bit on the boring side...especially for voice.
However after hearing them on Acoustic guitars in this film, I realize that what I confused for boring, was something that seemingly always worked. Countless records used 67's or 87's on acoustics back in the day and for good reason.
When you think about it, the same can be said with so many categories. Speakers that sometimes seem a bit boring...can be listened to for long periods of time. No spikes to cut into the ears. A good bow that shoots smooth will always hit truer than a bow that is super fast a shocks the hand. So what if the arrow is a bit slower and drops a little more? I would rather hit more accurately. And boy do I wish I had understood this with Women early on in life. The ones that I thought were a bit boring...were in fact the most dependable, truest. Wild girls are fun at first, but longterm their demands become incredibly fatiguing. ha ha...Now, if I only knew what I know now. At least I can say, that even back then in the nativity of my youth, I knew the infinite value of the Beatles. I Wished I could have been one of them.
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Old 01-07-2022, 07:27 PM
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What a wonderful contribution - thank you , K&G !

If you ever have the chance to purchase this book, take it:
"Recording the Beatles : The Studio Equipment and Techniques Used to Create Their Classic Albums by Kevin Ryan & Brian Kehew (2006)". Amazon unfortunately saying not available at the moment.

According to the authors it should be U67s used in the movie / recordings.
U67s were used on anything from string sections, guitar cabinets, bass amp, Steinway grand ... on Beatles sessions

Personally I liked my U87Ai, maybe a bit too grainy in the upper mids. I was told it could be different on early 87s.
I had the chance to purchase a U67 reissue (after comparing it to my U87) at a reasonable price and really like it. But yes, they are incredible expensive. But vintage ones ... uh !
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Old 01-11-2022, 05:28 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Default Final Thoughts on the mics of the Beatles "Get Back"

Finally finished watching this ever revealing documentary.
So happy that they destroyed our previous visions of total unrest between them, their ladies and everything else we once thought. They were just four lads having a grand time. A brotherhood like no other.
It is also a wake up call that we all need goals. They needed a goal to preform live. Studio life had become the norm and they needed something different..a goal to play live. I loved it how Ringo was the first to announce..."I want to play on the rooftop" They all followed after that.
Microphones...
I don't understand it, but it certainly looked like the U67 was covered in plastic(while they were up on the roof top). I assume to protect the capsules in Britain's notoriously wetter air weather. Hopefully there was an opening in the plastic around the capsule. But I could not tell.
And how did they get such a good balance of sound with those amps so close to them? I suppose this is one of the great features of a dynamic mic..like the long gooseneck AKG C30. Great on voice and lets you get right on top of it so that your gain is low. That way it does not pick up as much of the other sounds.
I am personally taking so, so long just getting ready to record. Probably, because I don't have a deadline, like they did. An absolute objective.
At one point I believe it was Paul that said something to the effect that when they actually have to do something, they do it rather well. This came at a time when they all seemed to be doing nothing more than joking around all the time. When they seemed so out of sync with each other. Yet, when they did get down to the rooftop performance(or should I say, when they got UP to that roof top performance)...they came together so wonderfully.
And once again, I will mention just how smooth that U67 sounded on Paul's Martin. For the final minutes of the Docu they play "Two of us". Wow the lead opening just comes through at a great clarity and does not get lost with the strumming that ensues.
Well, the long and short of life is that it is full of disappointments. Some horrible, and some so little hardly worth mentioning. But of all the musical disappointments one could possibly endure....Not Being Born A Beatle is at the top of the list. Something that all of us will have regrettably, continue to endure.
In the meantime, I have my Beatle Substitute Brothers, my AGF Recording brothers that is.
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  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

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