The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 01-17-2022, 04:32 PM
Pizzanetor Pizzanetor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Italy
Posts: 36
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Because it's not going to accomplish much. Room treatment isn't tossing some blankets around. Blankets aren't great frequency absorbers. The effect will be minimal and not really worth the expense or the effort.
I understand and thank you for sharing your opinion as I'm a noob on the topic.
However, I was particularly impressed by the results of this guy with "sound blankets":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCHaoZrQ9IA
__________________
I suck at playing guitar but at least I try.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-17-2022, 04:46 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 15,432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzanetor View Post
I understand and thank you for sharing your opinion as I'm a noob on the topic.
However, I was particularly impressed by the results of this guy with "sound blankets":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCHaoZrQ9IA
Yep, more muddy and airless than ideal.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-17-2022, 04:47 PM
Pizzanetor Pizzanetor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Italy
Posts: 36
Default

ok I will never have that room in decent conditions
__________________
I suck at playing guitar but at least I try.

Last edited by Kerbie; 01-18-2022 at 03:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-17-2022, 04:57 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 15,432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzanetor View Post
ok I will never have that room in decent conditions
You can get a decent recording on a fairly quiet instrument such as an acoustic guitar in a so so recording space but it's much more hit or miss.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above

Last edited by Kerbie; 01-18-2022 at 03:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-17-2022, 05:33 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,542
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzanetor View Post
I understand and thank you for sharing your opinion as I'm a noob on the topic.
However, I was particularly impressed by the results of this guy with "sound blankets":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCHaoZrQ9IA
So your girlfriend who won't let you hang acoustic traps would be cool with blankets covering your walls?

But more to the point... you're impressed by the before and after difference, but anytime you stick soft stuff in an otherwise empty room you're going to hear a difference. Put a couch and a couple of chairs in an empty room and the room acoustics will improve in a very noticeable way. That doesn't mean the couch and chairs are effective room treatment.

What you're NOT hearing in that video is a comparison of blankets to traps (which are miles more effective than blankets). When he starts talking about hearing some weird frequency, that's the blankets failing to get the job done. Those standing waves will find a home on everything recorded in that room. For that guy's purposes, which appear to be non-musical from his videos, the blankets may be enough for him. No one is going to be listening critically to the videos he's producing. They're going to him for information not listening entertainment. For music, the bar is much higher because the music where people are going to focus their attention ...it's the only reason they're watching your videos or listening to your tracks.

All of us who have treated our spaces have been where you are now. Trying to convince folks like you to invest in room treatment is always a hard sell because room treatment isn't as sexy as new mics and we were all fairly certain at one point that better mics could overcome a bad room (myself included). The reality is they don't. As someone already pointed out, mediocre mics in a good room will yield better results than great mics in a bad room.

When you record in a bad room, you have to do things to compensate for it. To cut down on reflections, people mic closer and play softer. That can make things sound better in a bad room but sometimes a song doesn't call for that (also, close mic-ing can introduce proximity effect so yet another problem to deal with). For more dynamic songs, there really isn't a good solution. The room is going to affect the outcome and the music will suffer for it.

I get that the idea of room treatment is a whole new world to you and perhaps you may think we're all overselling the importance of it. I know I felt that way for years. I just didn't buy into the idea that treating the room could have a bigger effect on my recordings than investing in better gear, so better gear was my focus. A lot of people here and in other forums will likely tell you the same thing. They'll also tell you that they wish they had accepted the truth of what they were being told a lot sooner. I've never met a person who has invested in room treatment and afterward complained that it was money wasted. I'll say this as plain as I can and it isn't exaggeration... the money I've spent on bass traps and my overhead cloud panels is the best and most effective money I've spent in my studio.

Buying a pair of expensive Neumanns to use in a bad room is like buying a beautiful new suit and wearing it with disgusting ratty shoes that have holes in top and soles. Sure, the suit is nice but the thing everyone will notice is the shoes.
__________________
Jim
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce


SoundCloud link
Spotify
YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-17-2022, 06:56 PM
dnf777's Avatar
dnf777 dnf777 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: NW Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,376
Default

I totally get your “huge room” comment, but for studio purposes, its a decent size. I would definitely put a throw rug down, and a big one at that. As mentioned already, the first floor bounce is important, and even though a carpet isnt an acoustic sink, it can certainly help. But also, marble is cold, slippery, and almost guaranteed to shatter anything accidentally dropped. For the latter reasons alone, I would go with a rug.

Also, if you can get away with some “art”, I got a whole box of used burlap coffee bean sacks from Amazon cheap. They fit 3M insulation panels nicely, and with a 1x3 stained wood border, they look really cool. Much better than egg-crate foam, too.

https://youtu.be/z5ApIWbjvcA
__________________
Dave F
*************
Martins
Guilds
Gibsons
A few others

Last edited by dnf777; 01-17-2022 at 07:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-17-2022, 07:14 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,618
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
I totally get your “huge room” comment, but for studio purposes, its a decent size. I would definitely put a throw rug down, and a big one at that. As mentioned already, the first floor bounce is important, and even though a carpet isnt an acoustic sink, it can certainly help. But also, marble is cold, slippery, and almost guaranteed to shatter anything accidentally dropped. For the latter reasons alone, I would go with a rug.

Also, if you can get away with some “art”, I got a whole box of used burlap coffee bean sacks from Amazon cheap. They fit 3M insulation panels nicely, and with a 1x3 stained wood border, they look really cool. Much better than egg-crate foam, too.

https://youtu.be/z5ApIWbjvcA
Our local coffee roasting place has bags free for the asking. Some of them are quite nice and have very interesting and colorful logos on them. I can see where they would make great "panel art".

I'd also suggest that you can tell a lot about what a room is going to sound like by simply clapping once and listening to what's reverberated and/or reflected back to you. It's almost too easy, but I think it's a great way of predicting "room sound".
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-17-2022, 07:56 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 8,871
Default

I'd try them both and see how they work, but personally I'd bet on the bedroom. Why? Because it's furnished. A reasonably-sized room with tables, chairs, closets, bed, etc will help break up the sound. They act as natural absorbers and diffusers. It won't sound like a pro studio, but with close micing, it can work. Big rooms are better in theory, but that assumes some treatment. If it's a totally empty room it may just sound like a cavern. But you'd have to try it to see. A gobo setup would also help, and perhaps won't violate the "no treatment on the walls" rule.

You don't say what you're recording. For solo guitar, close micing can let you get away with a lot - tho it totally "depends", every space is different.

For an example of recording in an untreated room, check out most of my you tube videos. 11x12 bedroom, carpet, hard walls and ceiling with a single futon in the corner - also a bunch of guitars on the wall. Here's a recent example: https://youtu.be/6rNxv64HkLg . I also do demos in that room for Acoustic Guitar, and in those, I can hear the room on my voice, since the vocal mic is a few feet away, over my head. I imagine for singing, the room would also be "ok" since I'd be singing closer to the mic. Not ideal, but it works.

A perhaps bigger issue is where you will mix. Hearing and evaluating your recording in bad acoustics can be tough. Tho I record videos in an untreated room, I mix/edit them in my treated studio space, so at least I can hopefully hear what I'm working with correctly.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-17-2022, 09:10 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 2,351
Default RE: Room Treatment

Aloha Pizzanetor,

How many times have we begun a mic discussion at AGF with a newbie only to end up trying to sell the virtues of Room Treatment before he wastes money & time on expensive mic's & gear?

Room Treatment is not a very sexy topic, but if you don't do it, pizzanetor, then home recording is an absolute waste of time & money. It's the only way you can maximize the high-end mic's & gear or to achieve consistent recordings & control over your recording space.

We've had so many Room Treatment discussions here that I almost sense a hesitation in several other veteran posters hear to fully enter into yet another one here. Ha! Check those out! Also, check out the Treatment video's in the resource link at the beginning of this 'Record' site above.

So pizzanetor, below is a copy of an old post of mine with several useful links included that explains the importance of Room Treatment & how to make DIY portable broadband absorbers. It will help you control either your small or large room for home recording. AND, you can store them when not in use (happy significant other).

First, meter your room to find the sweet spot (see Winer link). Use free software to graphically see where the room issues are in terms of early reflections. Then.... start making some DIY broadband absorbers to control them.

Picture creating a "room within a room" kind of tracking area placing portable, free-standing, 4"x2'x4' DIY broadband absorbers around the sweet-spot where you sit in your tracking space to record - to control early reflections.

BTW, just use a hinged piece of 2'x4' 1/4" plywood on the floor under your tracking area, also portable, if you have carpeted or marble floors. Wood floors are best for recording. You can add a rug to control ceiling to floor reflections. But I preferred to hang yet another broadband absorber above my tracking space (using a a mic stand) which works better than a rug, IME.

Note: Hanging mover's blankets, or placing them underfoot is not the solution you are looking for, pizzanetor, even if you record with a small digital recorder. The space needs to be treated. All of us here tried to record without treatment, or to find away around it. But experience taught us that we NEEDED room treatment to get the sound quality & consistency we were looking for, any sound. DIY Room Treatment does not have to be permanent or costly.

So here you go, pizzanetor, the old "treatment" post w/ relevant links:


"Aloha! Some useful 'treatment' links:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/

Just read the first few chapters of this dense Ethan Winer's 'Treatment Bible"'

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

https://gearspace.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/studio.php


Here's "sound" evidence that you need to treat your space:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/1..._bare_room.mp3 - Recording in Untreated Garage Sound

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/F...3_18inches.mp3 - Recording in Same Garage 75% Treated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cxcjXQUZJ0 - Same Garage Studio Completed Treatment - Recent recording

If you make DIY broadband absorbers, use 1-2 boxes of (12) 2" x 2'x4' Owens-Corning OC 703 rigid fiberglass (use gloves & mask). Double it up (use Loctite 300 spray adhesive) into 4"x2'x4' (a minimum of 4" thick not less or it won't work!) self-standing, portable panels per Fran's video & cover it w/ nice porous fabric such as white burlap (use hotmelt glue) - all tools are available cheaply & locally. REMEMBER - OC 703 is what most pro studio's use globally, not Rockwool or Roxul. Although it may not be available in Italy (Rockwool products should be).

PM me if you have any questions RE: your Room Treatment quest, pizzanetor.

Over several decades, Proper Room Treatment made the biggest difference in my recordings over any other factor. Same with most player/recordists, no matter what level of gear they use. THEN, I could finally get creative with consistent results as I moved up the gear chain. And..I could get into mic placement experiments (after treatment, second most important factor) - without limitations of an untreated space.

I began with 9 DIY broadband absorber panels to treat (placed on the floor around & above me) my tracking area. After a year, I added 6 more to treat the area around & above my desk. Then after another year, I finally made 6 more panels to treat the four room corners as Bass Traps. 21 panels in all, made over three years. All made a HUGE difference in the clarity, consistency & quality of my recordings, maximixing my gear, separating frequencies.

Start w/ at least four panels - 2 in front of the mic's, two behind you for reflections as a test for your space, & after you meter your room & see where the sweet spot & problems are in your room for tracking (see Winer) you'll know where to place your panels.

You'll make what you need as you learn more. Easy to DIY, BTW & $ave lotsa money. These are portable panels that can easily be moved, stored away or quickly set-up to us the room for other uses. Or, if you can sell your girl on it, you can 'permanently' affix them to walls , corners & ceilings. Then you pay even closer attention to Ethan Winer's "acoustic bible" (above) about how to "permanently" treat a room for best sounding recordings.

Best of Luck, pizzanetor! Treat Your Space First! - BEFORE YOU BUY ANY GEAR. You'll clearly hear exactly why! Yes, Room Treatment IS THAT important. Fully Commit to it. It's Priority #One for recording your music & maximizing any gear, and either space.

These links above will get you there. Your ears will do the rest.

Good Luck, Pizzanetor!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 01-17-2022 at 10:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-17-2022, 09:50 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 1,840
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzanetor View Post
so it's better to cover all the room floor with blankets + put a lot heavy of them right under my recording position?
You'll want to spread rugs/blankets underneath you, but you don't have to concern yourself with the spot that is 10 feet away.

The goal is to eliminate reflective surfaces close to you (and the microphone).
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
2020 Irvin SJ cutaway (build thread)
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-18-2022, 01:31 AM
j3ffr0 j3ffr0 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,791
Default

Wondering how high the ceilings are...

In any case the bigger room is going to have less nodes at problematic frequencies. It will sound better with less treatment. However, excess reverb could be an issue but high frequency absorbers are easy and cheap. But the points made here about room treatment are important if you are serious about recording. Investing in adequate treatments is often the cheapest way to improve the quality of one's recordings.

You can do floor to ceiling soffits in the four trim-corners without attaching anything to the walls. You could also do a couple of gobos to help with reverb.

A couple other ideas, record in both before investing in treatment and see how they sound. Better yet, measure both with a program like REW and a cheap mic with a calibration file.... that way you can have a graph of which room sounds best. https://www.roomeqwizard.com

Of course your measurements will depend on your monitors and placement....
__________________
Alvarez: DY61
Huss and Dalton: DS Crossroads, 00-SP
Kenny Hill: Heritage, Performance
Larrivee: CS09 Matt Thomas Limited
Taylor: 314ce, 356e, Baritone 8
Timberline: T60HGc
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-18-2022, 08:20 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 16,824
Default

The question about ceiling hight is relevant.
Also you have not mentioned budget for room treatment ?

While not cheap,,,, as I mentioned, Wall Art style acoustic panels are available commercially from Mfg's Like GIK, and others.
Here is a photo from the GIK website.. They offer something like 1.4 million print image possibilities ,,,, OR you can even upload you own image/s .......


This is a music listening room (same theory applies ) but it has some great room treatment going on where the treatment becomes an intentional room decor statement
Almost floor to ceiling corner Bass Traps with decorative wood diffuser covers
and the First reflection point, side wall panels.. Note the heavy and likely dense throw rug on what appears to be a fairly reflective floor

__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/user/KevWind1/videos

System :
Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2021.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,,128GB 2666MHz DDR4 RAM,,2TB SSD storage,Radeon Pro 5700 XT16GB Catalina 10.15.7

Last edited by KevWind; 01-18-2022 at 12:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-18-2022, 03:28 PM
Pizzanetor Pizzanetor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Italy
Posts: 36
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ffr0 View Post
Wondering how high the ceilings are...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
The question about ceiling hight is relevant.
ceilings are high 9 ft
__________________
I suck at playing guitar but at least I try.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-27-2022, 05:17 AM
Parlorman Parlorman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,855
Default

I get good results in smaller furnished rooms. I use a Royer R-121 ribbon mic 12 to 18” off the 12th fret and a Rode NT-1A condenser mic about 4 feet away and above to capture room ambience.
__________________
Bill

Guitars:

1910's Larson/Stetson 1 size guitar
1920's Larson/Stahl 00 size guitar
1920 Martin 1-28
1963 Gibson Hummingbird
1987 Martin Schoenberg Soloist
2014 Froggy Bottom L Deluxe Koa
2015 Rainsong P12
2017 Probett Rocket III
1993 Fender Stratocaster

Banjo: Stelling Golden Cross
Mandolin: Weber Bitterroot
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-27-2022, 08:20 AM
Golffishny Golffishny is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 694
Default

I have no experience in this so just throwing this out for discussion. Could the use of tri-fold panels with or without blankets draped over them help in any position, front or back. Help to re-size the recording area any provide sound traps. They could be stored out of the way when not in use. Again, I have no knowledge of the subject.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=