Fender tuners

[Roksbug]

About two months ago I bought a new Fender nylon string guitar. It is a model CN-140SCE. It is a fairly low end guitar that I bought to throw in the back seat and take to the beach or something I don't need to worry about being extra careful with.
The problem I am having is with the tuning keys. It does not stay in tune very well and at this point the strings must be worn in enough to not have any stretch left in them.
Would installing better quality tuners help? Are different brands of this type of tuner a universal fit?

Thank you for any help/ideas you may have.

Paul

[generalliamsayn]

Stewmac.com is very thorough about displaying the measurements of the many tuners they carry - I'd look there first.

[mtdmind]

Might they be slipping at the bridge where the string is tied?

[Wade Hampton]

Good quality classical guitar tuners cost even more than good quality steel string tuners, so it’s no surprise that the stock tuners on an inexpensive classical guitar wouldn’t be all that great. In your position I wouldn’t be in a hurry to buy a better set; instead I suggest you start looking at what’s available in classical tuners and what the prices are like.

Then if it was me and I thought I had gotten a good sense of what the market prices are, I’d buy something from about the middle of the price, a good but plain utilitarian set that will give you the best value for your money.

I like Gotoh tuners as a rule, and I’ve heard that Gotoh makes good classical guitar tuners. But nylon string guitars are not my field, and I would never pretend that I’m knowledgeable about any aspect of those instruments.

But you know what, I have a good friend who builds classical guitars and I’m going to phone him right now and get his advice.

I’ll return to this thread when I know more.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Roksbug]

Thank you all for the great advice and ideas. It is much appreciated!!

Paul

[Wade Hampton]

Hey, Roksbug, I just got off the phone with my buddy Duane, the classical guitar builder. He confirmed what I had thought about Gotoh making good quality, reasonably priced classical guitar tuner sets. Another good brand to look for within the same price range are Rubner tuners, which I think are made in the former East Germany. I have a set of Rubner mandolin tuners on one of my mandolins, and they’re of good quality.

Spacing: Duane told me that over the past decade and a half that 70mm spacing of the tuner posts has become the industry standard. All of the classical guitar tuner sets are being made to that standard. So are all the classical guitars being made these days. So you shouldn’t have any spacing problems anywhere on this project.

The mounting screw holes might be in different locations, but those are easily dealt with. It’s the shaft holes through the headstock and the placement of the tuner posts that matters, and those all match these days.

So whatever tuners you buy will fit into the guitar you have, with no major obstacles.

I’ll get to the details of what he told me to have you look for, but I’ll get to that later, but first I want to tell you what he told me about the tuners you have now.

He asked me to describe what I saw in the photo of your guitar’s headstock, specifically about the worm gears and the areas right around them. Then he said:

“Oh, yeah, those are that typical Pacific Rim crap, cheapest of the cheap. He’s right in wanting to replace those tuners because they’re the bottom of the barrel. They’ll never hold a decent tune no matter what he does, whether it’s attaching at the tuner post more efficiently or he gets better strings or anything else, because those tuners are garbage. Even the crappiest entry level nylon string guitars deserve better tuners than those.”

He explained to me that for replacement nylon string tuners at the consumer level there are four basic price levels that are available. If you have a local Guitar Center or a well-stocked local business this is what you’ll find when you’re there. Same thing online. The prices will vary a bit but you’ll see different brands at these same quality and price levels:

The first level starts around twenty dollars and runs up to around forty dollars, give or take a few bucks.

These are the lowest grade replacement tuners, and while they’re pretty good neither he nor I think they’re really worth the energy and effort to install them. They’re still better than what you have now, but in terms of tuner accuracy they run from sorta okay to pretty good, but never great or something that you never have to tweak or fuss over.

“Just okay” is the most accurate assessment Duane can give you on those.

Why bother, really?

The next quality level starts around fifty to sixty dollars a set, and runs up to around ninety or so. In that ballpark. This is the level where Duane thinks you should concentrate your efforts, because this is where you’re going to find the best quality for dollar spent.

If you were looking for a decent stereo set/home theater setup, this is where you would find the “audiophile’s specials,” the bare bone setups with very few additional features (like no record player arm that returns to its pinion after an album side finishes - you have to get up and change it yourself, but is packed with the same excellent electronics as the more expensive end of the product line.)

This level of tuner doesn’t lack anything obvious but is visually plain, because the hardware quality is excellent and at this price level all they can afford to sell you.

This retail price point is definitely where you’ll get the best bang for your buck.

Because they’re the most appropriate for your needs and will probably perform just as well as the next, more expensive level tuners. Past this second tier the quality level for the amount of money spent no longer expands exponentially, but becomes incremental.

The quality level no longer gets obviously better every extra ten dollars that you spend.

So the third level starts around eighty five or ninety dollars per set and goes up to around 125 dollars from there, and the fourth level starts there and goes up to maybe a thousand dollars a set.

Believe it or not, there’s another level beyond that, and it’s very easy to spend more on a beautiful set of custom made tuners than you would for a nice guitar.

How do I know that for sure? Because about 20 years ago I got frustrated with the endemic mediocrity of all the production made mandolin tuners of the time and commissioned a set of handmade Rodgers tuners, made by a father and son in a small village in Merrie Olde England. I’m not sure whether they could see Robin Hood and his Merrie Band swinging through the trees from their workshop window, but that was the general ambiance of their production of their environmentally sound organic tuning gears.

Like you’d see a badger in a waistcoat clutching a tumbler of nut brown ale and whistling a jaunty version of “Rule, Britannia,” while his friend Mr. Toad is doing something mechanically dubious outside Toad Hall, just down the lane.

An Anglophile’s bucolic Mother Country fantasy, in other words. I’m an Anglican, so I’m genetically predisposed that way.



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It was a total nightmare getting the tuners.



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They were intended for a custom built mandolin being made for me by a builder in Texas, and he was adamant that the Rodgers custom gears have the exact same dimensions as the Schaller tuners he used.

So I bought a set of the Schallers and mailed them to the UK with my order. The Rodgers’ father and son finished the tuners and sent them to Texas, where the luthier said they didn’t fit and sent them back.

I got a phone call from the younger Rodgers explaining the situation, and then told me: “My father and I have decided not to charge you for the extra work, but you’ll have to pay for the extra shipping.”

“I don’t have to PAY YOU FOR THE EXTRA WORK?!?!?!? Why didn’t you pattern the tuners exactly on the dimensions of the set of Schallers I sent you? Like you agreed to??”

Total silence.

(Is that crickets that I hear chirping softly from across the Atlantic?)

Then:....................................“We’ll let you know when they ship.”

To make a long story short, those tuners made three round trips across the Atlantic until Bill Collings agreed to use them, and while the Rodgers the Elder and Rodgers the Younger stuck by their promise not to charge me any extra than the original price we’d agreed to, I had to pay an extra $600 dollars for the tuners’ recreational flightseeing trips across the Atlantic.

Guess what: when I finally got the mandolin and its well-traveled tuners, the beautiful hand made gears didn’t tune any more accurately than the brand new high end Gotoh mandolin tuners I’d just gotten that cost about 15% of what those gorgeous Rodgers bespoke tuners set me back.

Don’t order any custom tuning gears, unless maybe a world class tuner bespoke builder lives next door, likes you and gives them to you at a wholesale price....

Sorry for that long digression that had nothing to do with your needs, but I guess I’m still a little bit annoyed about it.

Was it noticeable?

Seriously, get online, look at classical guitar tuners at the various price points Duane described, look at eBay and check out what your local Guitar Center and well-stocked local music stores have on hand. If one of them has what you need and you’d rather have them install them (because they’ll probably do a tidier job and fill any orphaned mounting screw holes that need filling) you might be able to get a five dollar trade in credit for the stock tuners that they’ll give you if they want to encourage you to continue to patronize their store.

Can’t hurt to ask, even though those tuners belong in a toxic waste dump.

Bring along a biohazard waste container, just to be safe!

Also - if you do decide to have your music store put the new tuners on your guitar for you, tell them you want to pay for a new set of strings when they do. If they want to cultivate your business and think you’re a nice guy they might refuse your money and put a new set on as lagniappe, but even if they do charge you that’ll be better than them reusing the old strings. Which some stores might do.

So ask for a new set of strings and pretend to insist on paying for them until either they laugh and tell you they’re happy to throw them in or else they say “Okay. $7.95.”

Either way you’ll be in a better position afterwards than if neither of you say anything about the strings. (You have a better chance of getting free strings if you’re doing business with a mom and pop music store than at a corporate chain like GC.)

Hope this helps. Please keep the rest of us abreast of your progress with this.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Roksbug]

Wade,
thank you so much for info....and thank your friend for me as well.
I very much appreciate the effort and the story that went along with it. A lot of people just want the simple yes or no...but I happen to be one who enjoys the detail especially when it comes to guitars.
I had bought a set of nylon strings with the ball end but had been waiting to see if the strings the guitar came with would ever break in.
So, on a $400 beater guitar I get to spend another $100 on tuners.
I can use this as an example next time my wife asks why I need to buy such expensive guitars......my simple answer will be "So I don't have to buy new tuners!"
I'll keep you posted.

Paul