Learn a super easy piece with me: Ferdinando Carulli's Opus 241, No 5 - Andantino

[mc1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Typo: should have read second and third versions don't double the third, rather than first and third versions.

Thanks for clarifying. I misunderstood and thought you were saying 2 versions doubled the third.


Thanks for your help.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by cmd612

Noad also has the whole piece in 4/4 with eighth notes instead of 2/4 with 16ths.

That's interesting. I suppose that would simplify the score. And maybe slow it down a bit? 16th notes look faster than 8th notes. Does it change the feel? I don't know enough to do other than guess.

[mc1]

I need to put this aside for a couple days - something suddenly came up!

But I'll be back for musical analysis, technical considerations, and fingerings!

Seems like the hard part is done, getting the piece notated, and it's a fun and exciting spot to be, learning to play the piece!

I like pondering the various fingerings and trying to find alternatives. I plan to print out the unfingered piece, play through it and write down my fingerings, then once they're settled, add them to the score.

Yea, I know, how many fingerings can they're be? But I'll probably find a couple. I'm already annoyed by a fingering in the first 3 bars. Did you really write that fingering, Carulli? I think it's in all 3 editions. Is that evidence he did the fingerings? Why that fingering, though, if he did? Seems careless, reckless, and uninformed to me. Stay tuned...

[TBman]

Originally Posted by mc1

Here is a nice version, after the waltz. Barry, this player plays without nails.

Thanks MC1. I printed out the tab and I'll start on it this week.

I would have started it sooner but I'm working on a Celtic piece arranged by Stephen Wake that I eventually had to re-work for my fat short fingers. It was arranged in CGDGAD by Wake, but I transposed it to CGDGCE. I gave up trying to do a x333x7 stretch (played arpeggio). I could probably get there, hopefully without popping a tendon, but for one short piece I don't see the point in spending a month or two struggling with it. I could have replaced the stretch with something else, but I wasn't too crazy about the tone of the position at first, but I could go back to it, maybe with a different guitar. I re-worked it in GuitarPro and this week I'm going to try it out my transposition on a fret board. I'm also going to look again at why I did CGDGCE not just CGDGAE. I was doing my transposition in between watching Family Feud with my wife,

[PeterTaylor]

On the bottom end of this page, there is also a version of this piece.
Under the head "Opus ???", it is "Andante in G major".

http://www.classclef.com/ferdinando-carulli/

[mc1]

Originally Posted by TBman

Thanks MC1. I printed out the tab and I'll start on it this week.

I would have started it sooner but I'm working on a Celtic piece arranged by Stephen Wake that I eventually had to re-work for my fat short fingers. It was arranged in CGDGAD by Wake, but I transposed it to CGDGCE. I gave up trying to do a x333x7 stretch (played arpeggio). I could probably get there, hopefully without popping a tendon, but for one short piece I don't see the point in spending a month or two struggling with it. I could have replaced the stretch with something else, but I wasn't too crazy about the tone of the position at first, but I could go back to it, maybe with a different guitar. I re-worked it in GuitarPro and this week I'm going to try it out my transposition on a fret board. I'm also going to look again at why I did CGDGCE not just CGDGAE. I was doing my transposition in between watching Family Feud with my wife,

Top 5 reasons to rework a Celtic fingerstyle tune on the board. Barry is going to go with, "Painful stretch". "Is it up there?" Survey says, "Ding!"
- cue theme music and the TB household jumping around.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by PeterTaylor

On the bottom end of this page, there is also a version of this piece.
Under the head "Opus ???", it is "Andante in G major".

http://www.classclef.com/ferdinando-carulli/

Hi Peter, thanks for the link. Very sharp eyes. I had a look and yes, there it is under the Opus ???, although I see it correctly labelled as "Andantino in G major", there is an Andante in Am, but it's a different piece.

But we are ahead of this, as we know it's Opus 241, Number 5. I had a look at the pdf, and it was ok, but I think we can do better. The transcriber there dropped a few rests and added a few notes.

Interesting to look at, though to see any differences. Thanks.

[mc1]

Alright, before we finger and learn the piece, let’s just have a look over it.

Here are the first 8 bars. I have put golden rainbows over the musical ideas to sort of show where they are. Sometimes it’s a little bit arbitrary whether that’s one long idea or two short ones, and where exactly they start or end.

This piece is so simple, very guitaristic, meaning it plays easily and sounds like a guitar piece.

Bar 0: It’s in the key of G, with a single sharpened note, F#, shown on the staff. So any F notes shown should be raised to F# when played. It’s in 2/4 time, so there’s 2 quarter notes per bar.

The title is Andantino, which is really just a tempo indicator, and tends to mean lighter and quicker than Andante, but without any strict rules, as far as I can tell. Wikipedia gives a tempo range of 80-108 bpm for Andantino. I think it’s a pretty loose tempo instruction, and I plan to play it fairly slowly.

There is single dynamic marking, mf, meaning mezzo-forte or moderately loud. I think will consider this marking a suggestion as well.

Bars 1-2: There is this nice positive rising theme that’s basically G major->Am7->G major section. The chord starting bar 2 I consider G major, and not for example, some sort of B minor, since the open G note is there. Bm would include an F# note. And since it’s a B note in the bass, and not a G, this is considered an inversion of a G major chord.

Bars 3-4: Starting with a pickup of the E and F# notes from bar 2, we have perhaps my favorite line from this piece. The harmonies go something like Em->Gmaj7->C->Bm. I’m not completely sure about chords 2 and 4. I’m calling the 2nd chord Gmaj7, because of that open G note and the F# note, but maybe it’s more of a D major chord with a G pedal note. A pedal note is a sustained note that keeps ringing while surrounding notes change, and occasionally clash. But it works musically since you get used to the pedal tone and because all consonance and no dissonance makes for a dull tune.

And is the last chord another inverted G chord or a Bm? I’m not sure.

But I love the sound of the 2nd chord here, with the major 7th interval of the open G and the F# note. Very emotional sounding.

And at the start of this phrase, with the pickup notes, there is a rest in the bass, and I think that does need to be respected. The bass note B shouldn’t be overlapping with the E and F# notes.

And there’s a rest at the end of bar 4 that should also be adhered to, since it creates a little bit of breathing room.

Also just a ton of open G strings, almost every other note, so care needs to be taken to keep those from dominating the piece and turning it in to a tribute to the G string.

Bar 5-6: A couple of complementary phrases, first in D7, then another inverted G. Again there are rests in the bass. For me, these are the hard ones to get, especially the 2nd one. You’ve got 3 open strings ringing, so you want to stop all of them while playing the G note on the high E to start the next phrase. There are some different techniques for stopping the ringing strings, such as using your right hand thumb, the left hand thumb, or resting p-i-m on those strings. I think I’ll probably use p-i-m in this case, but I have a tendency to want to pluck one of them when playing the high G note.

For the end of bar 5, I’ll probably just use my right hand thumb as there’s only 1 open string to silence. Seems like some players will start the next phrase (the E note) and then immediately dampened any open strings, to create more of an overlap in sound. I find that difficult as well, as I tend to want to pluck the string I really want to quiet. I’ll need to play these bars really slowly till I can stop the open strings without too much ado.

Bar 7-8: And now the big finish, with a C->Bm->Am->G->D run. Seems like an opportunity for some syncopation here, accentuating the higher notes rather than the bass notes.

There is also a chromatic run at the end, with the C# note being snuck in between the C and D. When I was younger I used to find these types of romantic era melodic ornaments a bit cutesy and maybe even cringey. But now I’ve heard them so much I almost accept them. Perhaps some care not to focus on the C# note will help.

And another rest.

[redir]

MuseScore is cool too becasue you can play and hear the piece. Even though it's just a cheesy midi piano sound it helps a lot.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by redir

MuseScore is cool too because you can play and hear the piece. Even though it's just a cheesy midi piano sound it helps a lot.

MuseScore has come a long way and now you can hear it with a cheesy midi guitar sound!

It does have individual instruments now, and they aren't too bad. And a mixer. I think it can load soundfonts as well.

But it's great for edits, hearing stuff faster or slower, trying other keys, tricky rhythms. Even transcribing other instruments, because you can enter the notes in the original key, which makes for less typos, then transpose it to whatever key you like.

Really fun and useful, and totally free!

[mc1]

Now let’s look at bars 9-16. Not so much going on here as in the first half.

Bars 9-12: So I’ve grouped these as 2 – 2 bar phrases. D7->G, broken up into arpeggios.

Bars 11 and 12 are a repeat of bars 9 and 10. When playing a repeating motif, like this, in order to keep the interest up, there is usually some variation in timbre or style. So the first one loud, second one quiet, or first one dolce (“sweet” - over the soundhole), and the second one ponticello (near the bridge), or vice-versa, or both, or something else.

Bars 10 and 12 seem good for syncopation again, de-emphasizing the open G notes, and emphasizing those on the off beat.

Bars 13-14: This is a pretty section, C->G->D7->Em->C, rising up to the summit at Em. I think the music will crescendo (peak in volume) and also ritard (slow down) here. That Em with the high G is a nice place to pause.

Bars 15-16: And a C6->D7->G finish. I have to be careful to not race through these bars, especially the D7 part. I noticed I like to hurry the music there.

I think the rest at the end of bar 16 is important for the first repeat, but doesn’t really apply to the final chord, which can be sustained.

Well, that’s the end of analyzing the tune. Hard to believe there’s that much to talk about.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by mc1

Alright, before we finger and learn the piece, let’s just have a look over it.

You analysis is a good example of acquainting oneself with a piece of music.

When playing the same piece, what makes one player sound different than another has a lot to do with his or her interpretation of that piece - how he or she choses to play it. More often than not, there isn't a "right" answer to questions of interpretation, rather just one's preference or how one prefers to hear the piece played. Some of the things in your analysis are related to interpretation of the music.

As one example, the C# note.

There is also a chromatic run at the end, with the C# note being snuck in between the C and D. ... Perhaps some care not to focus on the C# note will help.

My interpretation is that I WANT to emphasize the C#. I want to emphasize the pull to the note D, the destination and pausing point. To do that, I'd play it a bit louder and I'd hold the note slightly longer than written.


As an aside, I'm not terribly fond of this piece. My primary criticism is that it doesn't move well harmonically: it in places lacks a harmonic drive and seems to hiccup or just stagnate.

For example, in the first and second bars, the progression G major, A minor7, G major (I, II, I) isn't a very strong cadence: there isn't a lot of driving force from A- to Gmaj. For the piece, in bar 2, to "sit" for more than half a bar on G, then repeat the final notes, then pause, to me, it stagnates, doesn't go anywhere. If, for example, in the second bar it had gone from II to V, then resolved to I, then it would be very happy to pause there, in preparation for the next phrase in bars 3 and 4. But it doesn't. it does that sort of thing in a number of places in the 16 bars.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by redir

MuseScore is cool too becasue you can play and hear the piece. Even though it's just a cheesy midi piano sound it helps a lot.

Here is MuseScore playing the piece at 80 bpm:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3pixghoxkl..._5_80.mp3?dl=0

And at 110 bpm:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ht4cwdjbhs...5_110.mp3?dl=0

[mc1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

My interpretation is that I WANT to emphasize the C#. I want to emphasize the pull to the note D, the destination and pausing point. To do that, I'd play it a bit louder and I'd hold the note slightly longer than written.

That's probably better advice. It's not like you can sort of hide the C# note. I'll try it a few ways. Most likely it will remain one of my least cherished notes in the piece.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

As an aside, I'm not terribly fond of this piece. My primary criticism is that it doesn't move well harmonically: it in places lacks a harmonic drive and seems to hiccup or just stagnate.

For example, in the first and second bars, the progression G major, A minor7, G major (I, II, I) isn't a very strong cadence: there isn't a lot of driving force from A- to Gmaj. For the piece, in bar 2, to "sit" for more than half a bar on G, then repeat the final notes, then pause, to me, it stagnates, doesn't go anywhere. If, for example, in the second bar it had gone from II to V, then resolved to I, then it would be very happy to pause there, in preparation for the next phrase in bars 3 and 4. But it doesn't. it does that sort of thing in a number of places in the 16 bars.

It's like how much more stagnation could someone pack into 16 bars? None more. Well, maybe a few more open G notes.

Of course, there aren't many 16 measure masterpieces. The always get the B-side material.

When I listen to the first 8 bars of this, I can imagine a little children's story, where two children are going for a walk in the woods. So the first 2 bars are like, "Oh look, a mushroom!". And the next 2 bars with the melody coming back down is "I see a beatle!". Then bar 5 and 6 is more searching around, looking under leaves and branches, followed by them reaching a dead end with the pause on the D chord at bar 8. So yea, we've all seen lots of beatles and mushrooms, but it's fun for the kids and even ourselves if our expectations are low.

So I kind of like it's meandering course.

[mc1]

Alright, it's alternative fingering day here at camp Carulli, so we're all extra excited about that!

This piece sits so well on the guitar, that it can easily be moved around. So this isn't suggested fingerings, just some other possibilities.

I think for a piece like this, you can finger it traditionally, like how Carulli would have. Or you go with fairly traditional but with modern improvements, which is what I plan to do next. Or you can just find places on the guitar where the notes are playable and see what happens. That what I did here.

I'm using a combination of sheet music and tab. For me, the tab simplifies visualizing the positions. If you only look at 2 bars, then look at bars 3 and 4. But there's some other cool stuff in there as well.

Below are notes for specific passages:

Bars 1-2: Yup, all fretted strings. No barres, though.

Bars 3-4: This pretty section plays really well like this.

Bar 5: I use a barre here. I generally avoid barres when possible.
- First I had it fingered without the barre, using 2, 4 and 1 to fret the notes, high to low.
- But then the jump of 4 to the E next note was made easier by using the barre.
- I use 1 for the final note as a guide fingering into bar 7.

Bar 7: Using 3 on the G string as a guide is less squeaky than using 2 on the low E string.

Bar 8: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Still, kind of a cool fingering here.

Bars 9-11: A couple of different ways to play this.

Bar 12: There are harmonics playable here in the 10th position, notated with a diamond notehead.

Bar 13-14: No barres needed here.

Bar 15: The last note of this bar is fingered with 3 to free up 2 for the first note of bar 16.

Bar 16: Not so much overlapping notes for a final chord as a melodic walkdown, like a cello suite.
- Allows for some vibrato on the notes.