Overtones vs Quickness of Decay

[acoustic567]

Would it be fair to say that the amount of overtones produced by a guitar and the swiftness with which the notes decay are two distinct features? Is what they call “dryness” a combination of these two features? So you can have lots of overtones with not much sustain, and vice versa?

[Bowie]

Two different things. But, you will often hear them occurring at the same time so it's easy to associate them. Overtones are a tonal quality and have nothing to do with initial note attack speed or sustain. But, guitars that are long in sustain can many times have heavy overtones so we will often hear them together.

To our ears, heavy sustain takes away from the note attack because you don't have the same drop-off after the initial "transient" attack of the note. This is why blues is often played on guitars with less sustain. Also, why they tend to be dry in overtones. This rawness lets more expression come through as the attack isn't being softened by sustain and the tone isn't muddied in overtones.

It's more complicated than that though. Sustain that is rich in overtones will cloud the sound even more than a dry sustain. An example; I have a Waterloo that gives a very long sustain but it still sounds "dry" because the notes are not rich in overtones so the notes seem to "pop" more. This is a great blues guitar, despite having long sustain.

That's a lot of generalizing though. You have guys like Happy Traum that play blues on rich and sustaining guitars so keep in mind, there's no rules when it comes to musical taste. I spent a long time chasing more sustain and more overtones only to realize in recent years, sometimes less is more.

[Monty Christo]

Originally Posted by acoustic567

you can have lots of overtones with not much sustain, and vice versa?

Interesting. I think decay and overtones are two separate things, yet I have not heard many guitars with lots of overtones that don't also have a fairly long sustain; nor have I encountered short-sustaining guitars that have a lot of overtones.

I feel like a note needs to sustain for a certain time in order for overtones to develop and become audible, but the presence of sustain alone doesn't necessarily produce them.

[BlueBowman]

Originally Posted by Bowie

Two different things. But, you will often hear them occurring at the same time so it's east to associate them. Overtones are a tonal quality and have nothing to do with initial note attack speed or sustain. But, guitars that are long in sustain can many times have heavy overtones so we will often hear them together.

To our ears, heavy sustain takes away from the note attack because you don't have the same drop-off after the initial "transient" attack of the note. This is why blues is often played on guitars with less sustain. Also, why they tend to be dry in overtones. This rawness lets more expression come through as the attack isn't being softened by sustain and the tone isn't muddied in overtones.

It's more complicated than that though. Sustain that is rich in overtones will cloud the sound even more than a dry sustain. An example; I have a Waterloo that gives a very long sustain but it still sounds "dry" because the notes are not rich in overtones so the notes seem to "pop" more. This is a great blues guitar, despite having long sustain.

That's a lot of generalizing though. You have guys like Happy Traum that play blues on rich and sustaining guitars so keep in mind, there's no rules when it comes to musical taste. I spent a long time chasing more sustain and more overtones only to realize in recent years, sometimes less is more.

Great answer. This is how I think of it, too. Even your realization at the end of your post mirrors my experience and current preference.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Bowie

. . . You have guys like Happy Traum that play blues on rich and sustaining guitars . . . .

Yeah, I was thinking of Rory Block.

A friend who teaches guitar showed me how to dampen notes with the heel of my right hand "to make a Martin sound like a hundred-dollar guitar."

[acoustic567]

Really appreciate these thoughtful and informative responses.

[rick-slo]

Part of what is mixed in with overtones is sympathetic vibrations and those are going to vary with this piece and the tuning it is in. My most responsive guitar has good amounts of both of the above and and a long sustain. When I think of those things a good demo is this recording:
https://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/Rebecca.wav