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  #16  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:11 PM
hess hess is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
That's the device.

It was originally marketed for measuring string height between the first fret and the bottom of the strings - something not demonstrated by Mr. O'Brien in the video.

One method of determine the correct string height at the nut is to measure the distance that a string is above the first fret. As an example, let's say we use the device, above, and measure a distance of .020" that the string can be depressed before it touches the first fret. If the target distance is, say, .005", we need to reduce that height by .015". To reduce that distance by .015", one then removes material from the nut slot by some unknown amount, an amount that will result in the target .005 height of string above first fret. Frequently, the slot height is reduced by trial and error until the .005" target is reached.

The reason that I don't like this method is the trial and error part of it. One stroke of the file too much and the slot is too low.


The reason that I prefer the stacked feeler gauges is that it is a direct process. That is, what one files is what one measures. One keeps filing until one just touches the top of the feeler gauges with the file - a tactile feedback of whenever to stop. There is no trial and error and no cutting a slot too deep. No back and forth of removing a bit from the slot, measuring, removing a bit more from the slot, measuring...

Both methods work. I just prefer the direct measurement (feeler gauge) approach. Steve prefers the indirect measurement approach.
Charles, thank you for this useful thread and for your response. I’ve always used feeler gauges, but that digital/dial gauge seems quite nice. I’m guessing the plunger spring is removed or very light so that it doesn’t press on the string much by itself?
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  #17  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:01 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Do you believe that all the strings 1st to 6th should have a target of .005 to .007 above the first fret?
Or should the bottom Base Strings(6,5 & 4th) be slightly More?
I don't measure the height of the strings above the first fret. As I stated, I measure the height of the first fret and then make the height of the strings at the nut that height, perhaps with a few extra thousandths. It depends on the player.

What you are trying to achieve is the lowest string height at the nut that eliminates buzzing. If one plays with greater vigour, that might mean having the string height at the nut slightly higher to achieve buzz-free playing. If in YOUR playing, you need a bit more on the bass than treble strings, go for it. Know thy player for whom you are setting the string height.

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What kind of glue do you use for the nut? One source recommends a water downed Titebond original. 50/50 formula of water to glue.Do you glue both surfaces of the nut? Bottom and side?
There are many solutions that work. Generally, one choses one that one likes and goes with it.

I usually use a single, small drop of undiluted Titebond on the bottom edge of the nut, at its centre, so that the glue contacts the end of the fingerboard and the bottom of the nut. It only needs to hold the nut in place while the strings are off and doesn't take much glue. I see no reason to glue entire surfaces and using too much glue just makes a mess.
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  #18  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:03 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by hess View Post
I’m guessing the plunger spring is removed or very light so that it doesn’t press on the string much by itself?
The spring force is primarily to return the plunger towards its initial position, taking up slack. It yields when pressed against a string.
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  #19  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:45 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
I don't measure the height of the strings above the first fret. As I stated, I measure the height of the first fret and then make the height of the strings at the nut that height, perhaps with a few extra thousandths. It depends on the player.

What you are trying to achieve is the lowest string height at the nut that eliminates buzzing. If one plays with greater vigour, that might mean having the string height at the nut slightly higher to achieve buzz-free playing. If in YOUR playing, you need a bit more on the bass than treble strings, go for it. Know thy player for whom you are setting the string height.



There are many solutions that work. Generally, one choses one that one likes and goes with it.

I usually use a single, small drop of undiluted Titebond on the bottom edge of the nut, at its centre, so that the glue contacts the end of the fingerboard and the bottom of the nut. It only needs to hold the nut in place while the strings are off and doesn't take much glue. I see no reason to glue entire surfaces and using too much glue just makes a mess.
Thank you, Great reply!
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  #20  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:50 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Hi Charles et al, I'm a player, not a tech/luthier, but this peaked my interest

"I don't measure the height of the strings above the first fret. As I stated, I measure the height of the first fret and then make the height of the strings at the nut that height, perhaps with a few extra thousandths. It depends on the player.

What you are trying to achieve is the lowest string height at the nut that eliminates buzzing. If one plays with greater vigour, that might mean having the string height at the nut slightly higher to achieve buzz-free playing. If in YOUR playing, you need a bit more on the bass than treble strings, go for it. Know thy player for whom you are setting the string height."


I'm a heavy handed ol' bluegrass picker, and love my 1st position chords.
I don't tune my strings all open , but, as I mostly work out of a G, or C shape root chord, I tend to tune the notes of a G chord with an extra D on thre 2nds string.

For me, that makes the open 1st and particularly the 2nd and 6th strings a trifle flat when played open - but OK when playing GC, F and A7 &D 1st position shapes.

I play mostly Collings guitars which I feel have well spaced frets and intonation, and so I've always assumed that my method of tuning compensates my heavy fretting rather than issues at the nut or saddle.

If it matters, my dreads always have with medium gauge strings, my 000 has light gauge.

So, am I wrong? Is it the nut do you think ? (most are, I believe originals but none were bought new so I don't know for sure).

Thanks in advance,
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  #21  
Old 09-13-2019, 06:11 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
That's the device.

It was originally marketed for measuring string height between the first fret and the bottom of the strings - something not demonstrated by Mr. O'Brien in the video.

One method of determine the correct string height at the nut is to measure the distance that a string is above the first fret. As an example, let's say we use the device, above, and measure a distance of .020" that the string can be depressed before it touches the first fret. If the target distance is, say, .005", we need to reduce that height by .015". To reduce that distance by .015", one then removes material from the nut slot by some unknown amount, an amount that will result in the target .005 height of string above first fret. Frequently, the slot height is reduced by trial and error until the .005" target is reached.

The reason that I don't like this method is the trial and error part of it. One stroke of the file too much and the slot is too low.


The reason that I prefer the stacked feeler gauges is that it is a direct process. That is, what one files is what one measures. One keeps filing until one just touches the top of the feeler gauges with the file - a tactile feedback of when to stop. There is no trial and error and no cutting a slot too deep. No back and forth of removing a bit from the slot, measuring, removing a bit more from the slot, measuring...

Both methods work. I just prefer the direct measurement (feeler gauge) approach. Steve prefers the indirect measurement approach.
Charles nailed my process except, i dont file the strings down to height, i treat the nut, the same as a saddle, i make the nut radius the same as the fretboard , i notch my string locations to half depth, then i do the measuring exactly as charles has quoted and I remove material from the bottom to hit 10 thou string clerance, then i glue the nut in, and finish up with two or three strokes of the files at each string location to take the strings to 5 thou clearance at the end

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  #22  
Old 09-13-2019, 06:17 PM
hess hess is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
Charles nailed my process except, i dont file the strings down to height, i treat the nut, the same as a saddle, i make the nut radius the same as the fretboard , i notch my string locations to half depth, then i do the measuring exactly as charles has quoted and I remove material from the bottom to hit 10 thou string clerance, then i glue the nut in, and finish up with two or three strokes of the files at each string location to take the strings to 5 thou clearance at the end

Steve
Thank you! Very useful information
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  #23  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:20 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
Hi Charles et al, I'm a player, not a tech/luthier, but this peaked my interest.

I'm a heavy handed ol' bluegrass picker, and love my 1st position chords.
I don't tune my strings all open....
Thanks in advance,
Tuning is a complex issue. It has two components. The first is temperament, the target pitches you want your instrument to achieve. The second is intonation, how closely an instrument is able to achieve those target pitches.

With few exceptions, guitars are designed with target pitches of equal temperament. To make a long story short, equal temperament is a compromise and doesn't sound entirely in tune, but is equally out of tune in all keys. Even if an instrument perfectly achieved the pitches of equal temperament, the instrument would still sound out of tune.

No guitar achieves perfect intonation, though one can get "arbitrarily close". Most guitars, as purchased, have quite poor intonation. Poor intonation makes getting in tune a random chasing of one's tail since the instrument plays randomly closer or further away from the desired pitches depending where on the fingerboard the note is played.

The starting point to playing in tune is to ensure that the instrument achieves the desired pitches sufficiently accurately. That can include compensation at nut, saddle or both. Once that is sufficiently well setup, then one can logically address the issue of the discrepancies between equal temperament and what the ear wants to hear ("just" tuning). Part of that logical approach is in identifying the specific discrepancies, such as thirds. A good example of that is tuning a first position D major chord. If you tune the high F#, on the first string, so that sounds in tune, the open string will sound out of tune, such as part of the first position C major chord. What many do is "sweeten" the tuning so that it sounds more in tune for a particular key or group of chords, though it will sound more out of tune in other keys, requiring that one re-sweeten if one changes keys.

To address your question more specifically, one would have to know more about the accuracy of your guitar's setup and your method of tuning. To get past generalities, very specific information is necessary.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 09-13-2019 at 08:31 PM.
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  #24  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:42 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Tuning is a complex issue. A good example of that is tuning a first position D major chord. If you tune the high F#, on the first string, so that sounds in tune, the open string will sound out of tune,
That High F# you mention( High E second fret) Has been my number one complaint. Never understood why. Thanks for clarifying this. Especially a problem for myself since I use so many variations of the D chord in combination with E chord and its open High E string.
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  #25  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:59 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
That High F# you mention( High E second fret) Has been my number one complaint. Never understood why. Thanks for clarifying this. Especially a problem for myself since I use so many variations of the D chord in combination with E chord and its open High E string.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

Look at the table towards the bottom that compares equal temperament and Just tuning. The right-most column gives the discrepancy in 100ths of a semitones (cents). Note, for example, that the equal temperament major third is 15 cents flat compared to the Just tuning we hear as in tune. Practically, that means that if you tune the guitar to equal temperament the F# in the first position D major chord will sound 15 cents sharp. A good ear can distinguish between pitches 2 cents apart: 15 cents is way out. Consequently, many will lower the pitch of the high e string until the F# sounds in tune in that D major chord. That makes all of the notes on that string 15 cents flat. If you then play an E major chord, the high e will sound flat. We end up chasing the out of tuneless around from one key to the next.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 09-16-2019 at 08:30 AM. Reason: Corrections, in red, pointed out by Trevor Gore
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  #26  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:13 PM
maxtheaxe maxtheaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

Look at the table towards the bottom that compares equal temperament and Just tuning. The right-most column gives the discrepancy in 100ths of a semitones (cents). Note, for example, that the equal temperament major third is 15 cents flat compared to the Just tuning we hear as in tune. Practically, that means that if you tune the guitar to equal temperament the F# in the first position D major chord will sound 15 cents flat. A good ear can distinguish between pitches 2 cents apart: 15 cents is way out. Consequently, many will raise the pitch of the high e string until the F# sounds in tune in that D major chord. That makes all of the notes on that string 15 cents sharp. If you then play an E major chord, the high e will sound sharp. We end up chasing the out of tuneless around from one key to the next.
I've been aware of this since my college Music Theory days and I know this is something that piano tuners in particular struggle with mightily. Personally, I go for a quality that I think of as "consonance" and it always varies a bit from what my tuner or tuning fork is telling me.

I go for a very 'consonant' sound on open E, G, and D cowboy chords and check myself by playing an E5 chord at 7th position, with open strings all ringing. I find that once that's sorted, the rest of what I'm playing takes care of itself as long as the basic 12th fret intonation is right & proper to start with. Further adjustments (usually slacking the unwound trebles a tad) are needed when I use a capo.

This consonance is almost a physical sensation that I can feel in my chest, but it would not surprise me to learn that it's going to be different for each person, by a tiny degree, which may partly explain some of the subjectively identifiable elements of a particular player's "sound". Yes, it IS all in the hands (and the ears, the diaphragm, and one's very cells).

I've had scant opportunity to try out some of the "solutions" to tuning Temperament, such as compensated nuts, multi-scale/fan-fret designs, et al, but I believe that ultimately, since players are humans with unique senses of touch, pitch, dynamics, and pure artistic expression...clams and all, even a theoretically "perfect" system of tuning would probably result in something other than music.
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  #27  
Old 09-15-2019, 07:55 AM
mercy mercy is offline
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If you are going to glue just put the glue on the end of the fretboard, this will make the nut easy to remove without pulling up and wood from the bottom of the nut slot which is hard to level out. Once you do the nut will no longer be the correct height.
But no glue is needed as the strings will hold the nut in place. If the nut is loose in its slot it will drop out when you change strings but thats no biggie. Its simple to see which end goes which way becuse of the size of the gaps for the strings.
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  #28  
Old 09-15-2019, 08:17 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy View Post
If you are going to glue just put the glue on the end of the fretboard
One can do that, and many do. It works.

Quote:
, this will make the nut easy to remove without pulling up and wood from the bottom of the nut slot which is hard to level out. Once you do the nut will no longer be the correct height.
Only a very small amount of glue is necessary to prevent the nut from moving or falling out. There is no need to glue entire surfaces. If a small dab of glue is used, the nut is easily removed. If a small dab of glue is used, removing any residual glue takes me about 30 seconds with a sharp chisel, not something difficult to do. Doing so does not alter the height of strings or nut.

Quote:
But no glue is needed as the strings will hold the nut in place.
That depends. On some instruments, with some stringing arrangements, there is an unequal pull laterally and the nut slides laterally as one tightens the strings. A small dab of glue eliminates that annoyance.

Quote:
If the nut is loose in its slot it will drop out when you change strings but thats no biggie.
I'd rather it didn't, first, to avoid the nuisance, second, to avoid potential damage to the nut should it fall onto a hard surface. (Yes, I've had nuts chip or break when falling onto a hard floor.)

In my experience, there is no down-side to using a small dab of glue to hold a nut in place: there is only up-side.

Quote:
Its simple to see which end goes which way becuse of the size of the gaps for the strings.
True, but why bother if a simple dab of glue eliminates that issue once and for all?
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  #29  
Old 09-15-2019, 12:12 PM
Naboz Naboz is offline
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I would once again like to sound my extreme appreciation for Charles' participation on this forum. He thinks and writes clearly on so many aspects we players never even consider or were not taught--and he sure knows his 'stuff'!
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  #30  
Old 09-15-2019, 07:06 PM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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Originally Posted by Naboz View Post
I would once again like to sound my extreme appreciation for Charles' participation on this forum. He thinks and writes clearly on so many aspects we players never even consider or were not taught--and he sure knows his 'stuff'!
I second that.
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