Ported upper bout....?

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by AuntieDiluvian

I have noticed a ported upper bout on a number of "boutique" guitars.

Simple question - why would anyone want this?

Simple question for you, Auntie: Have you ever sat close to a wall to enjoy the reflected sound coming back at you as if you were in front of the guitar?

If so then THAT'S WHY you would want this. No wall needed.

My friend John Monteleone was one of the very first (along with Linda Manzer) to do this, and he makes them with either a 'fixed' opening, or with a sliding door for adjustment.

Contrary to much public speculation it doesn't affect what the people in front are hearing.

It makes the players job much easier, actually.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Contrary to much public speculation it doesn't affect what the people in front are hearing.

I've seen you post this before and wondering if there's info to back it up somewhere.

In my opinion, there are so many variables involved that it's hard to make such a blanket statement.

[ChuckS]

I have two commissioned guitars that have a port that was designed in, not added later. I'm very pleased with the outcome.

I feel the ports give me a better balance of sound, as the player; a sound more similar to what's heard out front. From my understanding, low frequencies radiate in all directions but higher frequencies radiate primary straight out from the soundboard. The port delivers these higher frequencies to me, resulting in the more balanced sound.

The port is also helpful when playing in a venue that does not have monitors and the room is 'dead'. In these dead rooms the player doesn't get much high frequency reflected back to them; this throws me off as my guitar really doesn't sound right; the port helps in this situation by acting like a mini monitor.

Lastly, as a person with high frequency hearing loss the ports are very helpful.

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Simple question for you, Auntie: Have you ever sat close to a wall to enjoy the reflected sound coming back at you as if you were in front of the guitar?

If so then THAT'S WHY you would want this. No wall needed.

My friend John Monteleone was one of the very first (along with Linda Manzer) to do this, and he makes them with either a 'fixed' opening, or with a sliding door for adjustment.

Contrary to much public speculation it doesn't affect what the people in front are hearing.

It makes the players job much easier, actually.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

Originally Posted by fitness1

I've seen you post this before and wondering if there's info to back it up somewhere.

In my opinion, there are so many variables involved that it's hard to make such a blanket statement.

Yes, with all due respect, and I mean that, I have a relationship with many luthiers and guitars built by many different folks, and have discussed sound ports with many. I have also played guitars with sliding covers to try them open and closed immediately after one another. It is my consensus within that framework as well as most of the luthiers, that it does indeed add to forward projection. I too would question how you are comfortable making such a definitive reply? Would love to hear more.

[AuntieDiluvian]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Simple question for you, Auntie: Have you ever sat close to a wall to enjoy the reflected sound coming back at you as if you were in front of the guitar?

Actually, no. The great majority of my time spent playing I have the pickup feed coming back at me through my monitor. This explains why I didn't "get it" when I played a ported guitar in a local store. Interesting concept and probably really nice for some players, but not really necessary or applicable for my situation.

Thanks for the explanation - that got the point across nicely!

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by AuntieDiluvian

Actually, no. The great majority of my time spent playing I have the pickup feed coming back at me through my monitor. This explains why I didn't "get it" when I played a ported guitar in a local store. Interesting concept and probably really nice for some players, but not really necessary or applicable for my situation.

Thanks for the explanation - that got the point across nicely!

Certainly if you only play plugged in, and not really interested in the acoustic sound of your instrument, there's not much benefit.

There are instruments that it may reduce the chance of feedback slightly, and smooth out some "wolf notes" a bit, but overall I'd say it's not for you.

[AuntieDiluvian]

Originally Posted by fitness1

Certainly if you only play plugged in, and not really interested in the acoustic sound of your instrument, there's not much benefit.

Well, I wouldn't say that I'm not interested in the acoustic sound - I spend a lot of effort to get the pickup feed to match the guitar's sound as closely as possible. I just can't rely on ONLY the acoustic sound and assume everything else is correct.

In context, the majority of my shows are either in a large horn band (loud - sometimes too loud) or in an orchestral setting (theater pits). Either way, I am always bringing the steel-string up to the volume level of everything else, so getting the amplified sound right is crucial.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

Yes, with all due respect, and I mean that, I have a relationship with many luthiers and guitars built by many different folks, and have discussed sound ports with many. I have also played guitars with sliding covers to try them open and closed immediately after one another. It is my consensus within that framework as well as most of the luthiers, that it does indeed add to forward projection. I too would question how you are comfortable making such a definitive reply? Would love to hear more.

Hi Tom, Hi Todd,
The simple reason is that I've played/listened to a bunch of John's guitars, on both sides as it were, and neither of us felt that the difference made a difference worth noting as far as 'what's happening in front'.

If the sound coming out the 'top' (side port facing the ceiling) is adding to the ambient sound that the listener experiences, I suppose you could ascribe that to 'forward projection' even if it's vertical.

Maybe we just have old ears, but they're our ears so that's all that counts.

The port absolutely makes it much more pleasurable for me, as a player, because it allows me to not have to 'dig in' as hard, yet the sound is 'right in my face', so to speak. That can only translate into a better performance, and THAT the audience will benefit from.

I would never try to 'sell' someone on any possible increased forward projection as a 'selling point'. It's entirely for the performers benefit.

I'm quite comfortable with that:-)

Regards,
Howard Emerson

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

If the sound coming out the 'top' (side port facing the ceiling) is adding to the ambient sound that the listener experiences, I suppose you could ascribe that to 'forward projection' even if it's vertical.

It's certainly possible that is some of the reason - I know every guitar I've carefully ported sounded better everywhere....not just volume-wise, but tonally as well.

As Tim posted earlier in the thread - here's some "research" on the topic (at the bottom of the page)

http://www.mcknightguitars.com/sound-ports/

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Hi Tom, Hi Todd,
The simple reason is that I've played/listened to a bunch of John's guitars, on both sides as it were, and neither of us felt that the difference made a difference worth noting as far as 'what's happening in front'.

If the sound coming out the 'top' (side port facing the ceiling) is adding to the ambient sound that the listener experiences, I suppose you could ascribe that to 'forward projection' even if it's vertical.

Maybe we just have old ears, but they're our ears so that's all that counts.

The port absolutely makes it much more pleasurable for me, as a player, because it allows me to not have to 'dig in' as hard, yet the sound is 'right in my face', so to speak. That can only translate into a better performance, and THAT the audience will benefit from.

I would never try to 'sell' someone on any possible increased forward projection as a 'selling point'. It's entirely for the performers benefit.

I'm quite comfortable with that:-)

Regards,
Howard Emerson

OK, thanks, just wondering if you had objective data or if it was subjective. Since it was subjective, I might point out that your statement could be considered a little too strong in its conclusion?

I am no expert, but my subjective data is likely as relevant as any other right? Tim at least attempted to outdo us both with some objective data, he is an engineer by training, and his numbers are at least trending in the direction of the sound port adding to forward projection as measured. His "study" was not controlled, nor blinded, nor eliminated all surrounding variables and statistical analysis was not done (clearly not enough sample size), but at least his numbers are more objective than my ears haha.

Still some things left to prove.

[Howard Emerson]

Tom,
Tim placed the mic 6” from the instruments, right?

I have no doubt there was a different reading between ports open and closed on the machine. In that regard Tim is correct.

My audience is at least 6’ away.

Don’t let the strength of my convictions dissuade you in any way, and I’m serious about that. I’m just very pragmatic.

Best,
Howard Emerson

[Alan Carruth]

I've also done a lot of research on ports, and have a paper on my web site about some of it. The main conclusion is that a port you can see into as you play makes a good monitor. It works by directing some high frequency sound, that would normally all be going off the top and out of the hole toward the audience, toward the player. They are especially useful when you play in a large, dead, or noisy space (think 'restaurant gig'). Folks with high frequency hearing loss also appreciate them. As with anything related to the guitar, there's a lot of complexity underneath that simple answer, which bears on the differences people report when they do tests of ports. Also, keep in mind that we tend to hear what we expect to hear: if you think a port will change the sound out in front, you're likely to hear that if you can see the change. Blind tests come up with different findings.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

My audience is at least 6’ away.

Don’t let the strength of my convictions dissuade you in any way, and I’m serious about that. I’m just very pragmatic.

No problem - I didn't realize you were talking about your audience in regard to "out front". I took that as directly in front of the guitar/actual output from the main sound hole.

In that respect I doubt an audience member would hear the difference between a 50.00 Behringer condenser and a vintage Neumann if you were miking your instrument either!

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

If you scroll to the bottom of this page you can glean a little more info from the testing that we have done on side sound ports. You can add a port to an existing guitar but the danger is raising the Helmholtz frequency of the soundbox too much and then the guitar will sound thin and almost tinny sounding. We engineer for side sound ports on the front end by reducing the diameter of the main sound hole by the volume of the port that we add to the side, so the Helmholtz frequency is unaffected by the port.

For a standard-size soundhole, what would be your upper limit size for a round port on the upper bout, Tim?

[Howard Emerson]

Here's one of the first that John Monteleone made, and it basically was an exploration of 'how far can you take it?'. It's the Monteleone Rocket Convertible, and all 3 openings are adjustable.

One thing is for sure: Working on the inside of the guitar is a, er.....breeze.

https://images.app.goo.gl/X94GC7Y1KwKhy8dM6

Please embed the picture if you can, thanks.

Howard Emerson