Playing melodies while strumming?

[Yeah]

Originally Posted by wcap

Why? One can work in melody notes while strumming with a flat pick.

Fingerstyle-strumming combinations are great too (and is a lot of what I do), but this approach gives a different end result.

With a flat pick you can get the melody notes and bass notes to sound out with wonderful strength and clarity that most folks will not achieve without a pick.

Ok, maybe I was too strong with my argument, but I just haven´t seen a lot of musicians playing that style with picks, even though you´re right it´s not impossible.

On the other hand, if you want to combine strumming with an arpeggio, you can´t hit two separate strings with a pick (for example, in nirvana´s plateau, where you have to hit the 6th and 1st at the same time)

I shouldn´t have said it´s IMPOSSIBLE to play that style with a pick, but I (IMHO, of course) would strongly advice against it.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by Yeah

Ok, maybe I was too strong with my argument, but I just haven´t seen a lot of musicians playing that style with picks, even though you´re right it´s not impossible.

On the other hand, if you want to combine strumming with an arpeggio, you can´t hit two separate strings with a pick (for example, in nirvana´s plateau, where you have to hit the 6th and 1st at the same time)

Indeed, you can't play two distant strings at once with a flatpick, though some players will approximate this by hitting them in rapid succession, and of course there is hybrid picking where you flatpick and do some fingerpicking (e.g. with the middle and ring fingers) simultaneously.

Originally Posted by Yeah

I shouldn´t have said it´s IMPOSSIBLE to play that style with a pick, but I (IMHO, of course) would strongly advice against it.

Fingerstyle skills would indeed be really good for a solo performer to develop.

Again though, it depends on what sound you are aiming for, and really good flatpickers/strummers do some amazingly intricate and amazing things. I do a LOT of playing where I combine fingerstyle (played with nails) with strumming, but in some situations there is just nothing like a flatpick. In the link I posted there is no way I could have gotten that sound without the flat pick.

Another option of course is to basically flatpick with a thumb pick (that you hold on to with the index finger to allow for upstrokes) and then be free to integrate this in with full-blown fingerstyle.

[RodB]

Originally Posted by Yeah

Ok, maybe I was too strong with my argument, but I just haven´t seen a lot of musicians playing that style with picks....

I would say the style is not at all uncommon and often used especially in 2nd guitar parts. At random here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdUrg2Cqxdw

Surely it's just a matter of style...

[Yeah]

Originally Posted by wcap

Indeed, you can't play two distant strings at once with a flatpick, though some players will approximate this by hitting them in rapid succession, and of course there is hybrid picking where you flatpick and do some fingerpicking (e.g. with the middle and ring fingers) simultaneously.



Again though, it depends on what sound you are aiming for, and really good flatpickers/strummers do some amazingly intricate and amazing things. I do a LOT of playing where I combine fingerstyle (played with nails) with strumming, but in some situations there is just nothing like a flatpick. In the link I posted there is no way I could have gotten that sound without the flat pick.

Another option of course is to basically flatpick with a thumb pick (that you hold on to with the index finger to allow for upstrokes) and then be free to integrate this in with full-blown fingerstyle.

Totally agree, and heard your recording, REALLY good stuff. Thumbpicks are a very usefull resource, forgot to bring them up. In my case, I have thick nails and just never found a comfortable one (probably due to being used to bare fingers also).

Maybe what I should´ ve said is that you can use a pick or not, but you should train your "open hand playing" (can translate the particular term for that) skills. I just find a lot of people who are very good guitarrists but whose tecnique is limitated because they always use a pick and always have they right hand closed, so they haver trouble playing with all other fingers of their right hand, losing a huge spectrum of posibilities.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by Yeah

.....

Maybe what I should´ ve said is that you can use a pick or not, but you should train your "open hand playing" (can translate the particular term for that) skills. I just find a lot of people who are very good guitarrists but whose tecnique is limitated because they always use a pick and always have they right hand closed, so they haver trouble playing with all other fingers of their right hand, losing a huge spectrum of posibilities.

Absolutely. Developing fingerpicking skills opens up a whole new world. And in that regard, I guess I would tend to agree that a person who wants to be a good soloist will want to have this in their arsenal of skills to draw upon.

Like any new technique, fingerpicking/fingerstyle might seem impossible at first (that's the stage my daughter is at right now with it, and that's how I was for years!), but it really becomes second nature after awhile (as does the matter of integrating baselines and melodies into strumming....it took me well over a year to start to feel really comfortable with a flatpick!).

[Timon]

Watching his strumming hand it looks like his hand does not go down far enough to be strumming after the middle two base notes.

Base note, strum
Base note
Base note
Base note, strum
Strum...

[dragnet99]

Thanks everyone, this has given me a ton to think about (and thanks for the warm welcome!)

I definitely do want to explore more fingerstyle, especially when the pick remains involved, because I really can't imagine going without the sharp attack and heavy sound of flatpicking.

One last vague question though; more than any other specific thing, I'm looking to learn as much specific, versatile information about mixing melodies into my strummed chords (as seen in the video I posted) as I can. Would a studying general fingerstyle be the best way to close in on this? Or is there a more specific route to take for this technique? And as always, any books, videos, or just specific techniques to Google would be helpful.

I ask just because after all the excellent responses, I'm almost having a bit of trouble figuring out exactly where to go next. I have less practice time than I'd like these days, so I'm looking to emphasize the best specific techniques I'll get the most use out of, rather than following every single lead or spending a month on one particular riff or song. I hope that makes sense!

[RodB]

I would just like to point out that flatpicking and fingerpicking are not mutually exclusive. Linking chords by small bass runs as shown in the example you gave, is possible and can give good results in both. Both styles support having the ability to get the melody on top as well, the texture / feel will change and a lot depends on the context / style in which you play.

Others I am sure are more familiar with the material available for learning (I haven't taught for a long time, now!)

[R_Warner7]

Check out this instructional video- may give you some ideas on begining stuff to try. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnVBYyafNvQ

[TNTaylor414]

Norman Blake is one of the best combining melodies with strumming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IsfrOitaE8

[wcap]

Originally Posted by TNTaylor414

Norman Blake is one of the best combining melodies with strumming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IsfrOitaE8

That's great. I've always been particularly impressed by the nice smooth arpeggios he does, that are essentially really smooth, really controlled, slow partial downstroke strums. I have not gotten good at that (if I do an arpeggio with a flatpick I tend to do alternating down and up strokes) - that technique used by Norman Blake takes a lot of practice to do really smoothly, as in this video.

To the OP....

Having learned the very little bit of melodic strumming and flatpicking I do following many years as a 5-string banjo player and after quite a bit of time with fingerstyle/classical guitar, it is hard for me to know how important that previous experience was for me when starting to learn to play with a flatpick. I'm sure it was useful, but I have to say that when I first started trying to play with a flatpick it almost felt like starting all over again. My gut feeling is that if you learned fingerstyle techniques you'd have a blast with it, and would find a lot of use for it, and it would give you useful insights for all of your other guitar playing, but if your initial goal is to play more like the guy in your video, or like Norman Blake, then there is no reason to not just forge onward with working on learning that.

I will say that personally, some of my initial explorations of what I guess I will call melodic strumming and flatpicking were inspired and informed by watching some YouTube videos of Norman Blake, similar to the one that was just posted. Though I have only actually watched a few of these, it appears that he has produced a set of instructional videos (and maybe there is a book too?). It might be worth looking into finding this instructional material by Norman Blake.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by dragnet99

Right, I think where I'm getting stuck is on the actual execution. Can you tell, for instance in the video I posted, if the technique is to strum, pluck a note in the bass run, strum again, etc., or if he's strumming consistently the whole time? And if it's the latter, what's he doing to give the isolated note such clarity?

The bass notes are played with down strokes and he strums upstrokes between. (stanron has it)
IOW, the downstrokes are aimed at the bass string(s), although because they carry on down to enable a fuller chord on the upstroke they may sometimes hit one or two other strings; but the bass string gets the main impact.

He's playing a Bm chord shape with capo on 2 (C#m sound), and the bass line is root-5th-b7-root:

-------------------------|--------------
-------3--(3)----3-----3-|--------------------
-------4--(4)----4-----4-|---------------------
-------4--(4)----4-----4-|---------------------
-2-----------------0-----|2---------------
-------------2-----------|-----------------
 1  .  2  .  3  .  4  .  |1
 D     D   U D   U D   U  D

As long as you're not too careful with those bass notes - attack them freely, keeping the hand in a simple DUDU move all the time so the pick passes down from the bass string all the way across the other strings - the upstroke on the chord is fairly intuitive. (He may not hit all 3 of those strings each time - it doesn't matter too much - but those are the ones he's fretting, muting the top string I think.)

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by dragnet99

Where can I learn more about this? Thanks!

I'm going to recommend two books:

The Art of Contemporary Travis Picking and the Art of Solo Fingerstyle, both by Mark Hanson.

To do this you have to start by getting your fingers all working together in the Travis Picking style, and then you slowly get them to work independently. It's not quite as difficult as it looks at first. Those books will get you there.

[LeftArm]

But the example is not Travis Picking or Fingerstyle he's flat picking as JonPR has said.
I've just bought Complete Flatpicking Guitar Book (Steve Kaufman) which covers this bass strum bass style in the first few chapters.

[stanron]

Timon points out that in the video his pick does not appear to move away from the bass notes enough to catch the chord parts. I checked the video again and I can definitely hear some of the high chord notes. It could be that he is up strumming with his fingers. Picking the bass notes downwards with his pick and up strumming the chords with his fingers. This technique can give a distinct different to the two sounds and I suppose counts as hybrid picking.