fingerpicking styles for folk music

[JanVigne]

" My thumb was comfortable on the bass rhythm (back and forth between the bottom 3 or 4 strings as Grossman advocates), and I used my middle mostly for melody notes, adding index and/or ring as necessary - if the middle couldn't move quickly enough to different strings, or if there were two melody notes at the same time.
That was what I found intuitive. I always had thumb-and-3 available, even if I rarely needed them all.
But I accept others find other ways to do it, equally intuitively."



I'm willing to bet Stephan won't demand his DVD back if you use more fingers than he suggests.

Yes, classical style is more strict about which finger does what when. Other than that, the rule I was given was to use as many or as few fingers as were needed to play the tune well and in time. Since I began with classical styles I learned to play with all four fingers and a thumb - that covers it, doesn't it? Yeah, four and a thumb. The little finger doesn't get much work in most of my playing but at times is required to manage the "well/in time" rule. Mostly I use two fingers and the ring finger just sort of hangs around waiting for something to do. Banjo style rolls are more easily accomplished with three than two IMO. Then the ring finger knocks off for a while.


The point here is non-classical styles aren't set in stone and each player must develop the dexterity required to accomplish a task. Most players would have a difficult time pulling off Travis' exact style which requires, IMO, extreme finger control. But so too would it be difficult for some players to accomplish the thumb over the neck style of certain players. We all approach this with our own abilities and physical benefits and detriments. Watch Jerry Garcia play his fingerstyle missing a finger. Do you really need all those fingers to play Gypsy Jazz? You do what you need to do to do what you want to do. Don't get hung up on the specifics of what someone else tells you you should be doing and you'll be OK. Concentrate on playing well and in time.

If you really want to become proficient at fingerstyle playing, I can think of nothing better to start with than some classical styles. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...1&postcount=10

Most public libraries have some materials for loan which will get you started on these techniques. If you can begin to master classical to the extent you see the connection to fingerstyle "folk music", at worst you'll have an extra finger or two to use when you want to play "well/in time".

[Mellow_D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoAwh...5D7D99&index=7

I hope this video clarifies the point I was making about the difference between the kind of fingerstyle where the thumb alternates with the other fingers versus the kind of fingerstyle where the thumb is not alternating but playing something AT THE SAME time the other fingers are playing.

At 6 Minutes and 25 seconds in the video above, Sokolow starts playing a constant "thump" on one string with his thumb while at the SAME time his other fingers pick something independently. (He even says it's "doing both things at once".) That I can't do for the life of me. My thumb just stops the moment the other fingers try to do what he's doing.

And at 7 Minutes and 42 seconds he shows it with a SPLIT SCREEN. And my thumb just can't do what he's doing. That steady beat with the thumb as the other fingers do "their own thing" independently.

What EXERCISES would teach my thumb to be able to do that, to have that independence? I'm ready to really work on that. It's so frustrating not being able to do that. (Again, any recommendations for DVD instruction on this?)

[Bern]

Honestly, someone has to show this one on one. What he plays in the video is very simple and another video/DVD would just leave you where you are right now.
There no better way to say this.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

...That I can't do for the life of me. My thumb just stops the moment the other fingers try to do what he's doing.

Hi M_D…

Just add the word "Yet…"

The exercises need to be done at a much slower tempo than Fred is playing at. You should go no faster than you can complete the following exercises without breaking the beat. Slow and steady is always better than fast and irregular.

Developing independence with the thumb...

• An exercise would be to play the quarter notes slowly and deliberately (what he's using as the thumb beat) and play the top three strings on every beat at the same time as the thumb plays, either brushed like Fred did, or plucked all at once with fingers 2-3-4.
• Don't stagger them rhythmically at first; play them together.
• Once you can do that in your sleep, then brush/pluck with the 1st bass note of the measure and rest on the other three while keeping the thumb going.
• Once mastered, pluck on every other bass note (beats 1 & 3)
• The pluck together on beats 1-2 & 4

To master this so you can do it in your sleep should take a few days. Then you can begin staggering fingers onto an off beat the same way.

• 4 bass notes, only one note plucked/strummed off beat between beats 1 & 2 in each measure.
• Next 4 bass notes, pluck between beats 1-2 and between 3-4, or twice in a measure.
• Increase it to 3 then 4 off beats.

All these exercises are done in strict 4/4 time, without any dotted rhythms (no swing feel whatsoever).

There is nothing mysterious nor cryptic about the process. It's a matter or retraining yourself so your brain/hand will cooperate in doing 2 things at once.

One of those two things has to be automatic...I recommend the bass note be the automatic part.

If I were to assign this to a student during a lesson, we'd play it together till I know they had it, then I'd expect it to be half completed the next time we meet (the first half of the exercises).

If they have been diligent, and the parts are played in steady fashion, then we will move on to the second part I explained. If not, we review and correct and work out the kinks in the first part.

They only come every other week for lessons, so I'd expect them to take about a month to nail it down if they'd never attempted it before.

The first time I attempted these type exercises, it took weeks. The second time less, and these days, it takes minutes to understand and begin working syncomated parts into the hands.

Hope this isn't too long to make sense...

[stanron]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

But I'm thoroughly confused as to where to start.

On Edit: the two things I would like to do is (a) be able to learn "patterns" using my thumb and three fingers in the alternating style and (b) be able to develop thumb "independence" when the fingerstyle pattern is NOT alternating but requires using the thumb playing something at the SAME time the other fingers are playing.

There are only two alternatives when the thumb picks four times per bar. Either the tumb and a finger pick together in a pinching movement or they pick individually. When they pick together they pick on the beat, when they pick individually the thumb picks on the beat and the fingers pick on the 'ands' in between the beats. That's it. There's an awful lot of milage you can get using just this.

I can remember thinking that this type of playing was impossible and I can remember being able to do it but I can't remember how I got from the first to the the second. I can remember that I taught lots of people to do it and all it entailed was playing one complete bar over and over, very very slowly but in perfect time. You slow it down until you can get it all in in time, and speed it up if you can keep the timing right. If you want I can post one or two patterns for you to try.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi M_D…

Just add the word "Yet…"

The exercises need to be done at a much slower tempo than Fred is playing at. You should go no faster than you can complete the following exercises without breaking the beat. Slow and steady is always better than fast and irregular.

Developing independence with the thumb...

• An exercise would be to play the quarter notes slowly and deliberately (what he's using as the thumb beat) and play the top three strings on every beat at the same time as the thumb plays, either brushed like Fred did, or plucked all at once with fingers 2-3-4.
• Don't stagger them rhythmically at first; play them together.
• Once you can do that in your sleep, then brush/pluck with the 1st bass note of the measure and rest on the other three while keeping the thumb going.
• Once mastered, pluck on every other bass note (beats 1 & 3)
• The pluck together on beats 1-2 & 4

To master this so you can do it in your sleep should take a few days. Then you can begin staggering fingers onto an off beat the same way.

• 4 bass notes, only one note plucked/strummed off beat between beats 1 & 2 in each measure.
• Next 4 bass notes, pluck between beats 1-2 and between 3-4, or twice in a measure.
• Increase it to 3 then 4 off beats.

All these exercises are done in strict 4/4 time, without any dotted rhythms (no swing feel whatsoever).

There is nothing mysterious nor cryptic about the process. It's a matter or retraining yourself so your brain/hand will cooperate in doing 2 things at once.

One of those two things has to be automatic...I recommend the bass note be the automatic part.

If I were to assign this to a student during a lesson, we'd play it together till I know they had it, then I'd expect it to be half completed the next time we meet (the first half of the exercises).

If they have been diligent, and the parts are played in steady fashion, then we will move on to the second part I explained. If not, we review and correct and work out the kinks in the first part.

They only come every other week for lessons, so I'd expect them to take about a month to nail it down if they'd never attempted it before.

The first time I attempted these type exercises, it took weeks. The second time less, and these days, it takes minutes to understand and begin working syncomated parts into the hands.

Hope this isn't too long to make sense...

I didn't realize I have to totally slow it down at first. Thank you for the information. I'll have to re-read this a few times ... as you say at the end, "hope this isn't too long to make sense" ... so I have two tasks at hand: (1) Reading this over a few times, MAKING sense of it (i.e., comprehending it all) and (2) APPLYING it (as in PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE).

I hope in a few weeks (months?) to be able to come back and say success!!!!

Thanks!


on edit:

"Once you can do that in your sleep, then brush/pluck with the 1st bass note of the measure and rest on the other three while keeping the thumb going."

That part confused me. The thumb hits on first note of the measure and rests on remaining 3 quarter notes of that measure? So if you are couting "One, two, three, four", hit the bass note with my thumb on the ONE, but then what is the thumb doing on the "two, three, four"? I don't know if I'm using the correct musical terms, but I am having trouble understanding; when counting four quarter notes in a measure, the thumb is hitting only on the ONE, then is at rest for counts "two, three, four" but then you say the thumb keeps going on the other three. In my head, that's contradictory. I'm not reading what you wrote in the right way and it's probably a failure on my part, my poor comprehension skills. (The thumb RESTS on the other three but yet it KEEPS GOING? I don't understand how the thumb can be both at rest and yet keep going.)

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by stanron

You slow it down until you can get it all in in time, and speed it up if you can keep the timing right. If you want I can post one or two patterns for you to try.

Sure, I'd appreciate that. Thanks!!!!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

...The thumb hits on first note of the measure and rests on remaining 3 quarter notes of that measure? So if you are couting "One, two, three, four", hit the bass note with my thumb on the ONE, but then what is the thumb doing on the "two, three, four"?

Hi M_D…

Think of the your thumb as relentless. It is supposed to play right on every beat no matter what is happening with the fingers. That way there is only one variable - the fingers - which can strum, brush, pluck, pick etc.

The thumb plays every beat of every measure.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

And I have NO ability to do the "non-alternating" stuff ... that is, when you have to use the thumb AT THE SAME TIME the other three fingers are doing something.

It is just a pinch movement. A few years ago on another forum I wrote a piece called "Scamp" as sort of an alternate thumb exercise. It has the thumb playing at the same time as other fingers. Several people learned to play as a group project - that was fun.
I also wrote another tune as an exercise called "Thumb Play".

You might check these tunes out by visiting my tabs page linked below.
Of course there is tons of stuff on the internet. You just have to work at the technique a bit longer.

[stanron]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Sure, I'd appreciate that. Thanks!!!!

OK here we go.

Pattern number one. This is basically a G chord but you are only going to play four strings, so you don't need to finger strings 1 and 5. All you really need to hold down is fret 3 on the low E string.

E╓─────────────────┐
B╟─────0───────────┤
G╟───────────0─────┤
D╟─────0───────0───┤
A╟─────────────────┤
E╙─3───────3───────┘

. .1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

If you were counting this out loud you would count

1`2 3+4

On beat one the thumb picks the sixth string (low E) fret three.
On beat two you've got the pinch. fourth string with your thumb and second string with (if it were me) the 2nd finger.
On beat three the thumb picks the sixth string.
On the + between beats three and four your first finger picks string three.
On beat four your thumb picks string four.

This pattern will also work with an open E chord and a barre F.

Change the bass note to string 5 to play an A chord, B7 and C chord.

If this works let me know and I'll give you another pattern.

[Mellow_D]

Thank you ljguitar, rick-slo, and stanron for all the input today. I really appreciate the explication and the exercises. And for your patience! (I know I don't pick up on things as fast as others and I tend to ask a lot of questions.)

Originally Posted by stanron

OK here we go. ...


If this works let me know and I'll give you another pattern.

Thanks! I will.


on edit: OK, I've been trying it for several minutes now. It feels a bit awkard but I am getting it (so long as I go SLOWLY).

Where you say, "On beat two you've got the pinch. fourth string with your thumb and second string with (if it were me) the 2nd finger":

As I said in an earlier post, having learned the first few pages of a Mel Bay book a few years ago, the few patterns I learned, I followed the "p i m a" approach that is taught in that book. I have my fingers "set up" -- so to speak -- that my first/index finger covers the third string, my second/middle finger covers the second string, and my third/ring finger covers the first string. I actually have those fingers right above the strings, in position to play. Is that correct what I'm doing?

Also, after I use my thumb on beat four to pick string four, do I let string four continue to ring out when I start the pattern again (when I go back to the beginning and use my thumb on beat one to pick the sixth string/fret 3?) Or am I supposed to mute the fourth string when I start the pattern again on beat one?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

As I said in an earlier post, having learned the first few pages of a Mel Bay book a few years ago, the few patterns I learned, I followed the "p i m a" approach that is taught in that book. I have my fingers "set up" -- so to speak -- that my first/index finger covers the third string, my second/middle finger covers the second string, and my third/ring finger covers the first string. I actually have those fingers right above the strings, in position to play. Is that correct what I'm doing?

Also, after I use my thumb on beat four to pick string four, do I let string four continue to ring out when I start the pattern again (when I go back to the beginning and use my thumb on beat one to pick the sixth string/fret 3?) Or am I supposed to mute the fourth string when I start the pattern again on beat one?

What fingers on what string is somewhat arbitrary but what you are doing is fine and gets three fingers involved.
Don't mute the strings as it is usually not required and just makes things more complicated - maybe later on in special cases.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

As I said in an earlier post, having learned the first few pages of a Mel Bay book a few years ago, the few patterns I learned, I followed the "p i m a" approach that is taught in that book. I have my fingers "set up" -- so to speak -- that my first/index finger covers the third string, my second/middle finger covers the second string, and my third/ring finger covers the first string. I actually have those fingers right above the strings, in position to play. Is that correct what I'm doing?

stanron's pattern would usually be played as follows:

------------------------
------0-----------------  F
---------------0--------  F
------0-----------0-----  T
------------------------
3-----------3-----------  T 
1  .  2  .  3  .  4  .
      F        F
T     T     T     T

Thumb plays 6 and 4. The "F" could be any finger. It could be the same one, or a different one for each string; middle and index most likely.

The point is that the thumb plays every beat. It's not dependent on the strings. Eg you'd apply the same pattern to a C chord:

E-------0-----------------  F
B----------------1--------  F
G-------0-----------0-----  T
D-------------------------
A-3-----------3-----------  T 
E-------------------------
  1  .  2  .  3  .  4  .
        F        F
  T     T     T     T

Now thumb is playing strings 5 and 3. The pattern is identical, it's just been moved across by one string.

As stanron says, treat each beat individually to begin with:
1 = thumb
2 = thumb and finger together
3 = thumb followed by finger (on the 8th between 3 and 4)
4 = thumb

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Also, after I use my thumb on beat four to pick string four, do I let string four continue to ring out when I start the pattern again (when I go back to the beginning and use my thumb on beat one to pick the sixth string/fret 3?) Or am I supposed to mute the fourth string when I start the pattern again on beat one?

Generally all strings are allowed to ring out. You are holding a chord, and picking single strings instead of strumming

[stanron]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Thanks! I will.

I followed the "p i m a" approach that is taught in that book. I have my fingers "set up" -- so to speak -- that my first/index finger covers the third string, my second/middle finger covers the second string, and my third/ring finger covers the first string. I actually have those fingers right above the strings, in position to play. Is that correct what I'm doing?

Also, after I use my thumb on beat four to pick string four, do I let string four continue to ring out when I start the pattern again (when I go back to the beginning and use my thumb on beat one to pick the sixth string/fret 3?) Or am I supposed to mute the fourth string when I start the pattern again on beat one?

There's not much to add to the answers from rick-slo and JonPR other than to point out that my hand naturally falls into the position you describe.

As to letting the strings ring, well this is part of a kind of unwritten rule which says that smooth, effortless playing involves doing as little as possible as often as possible. A kind of 'preferred laziness' policy which says if you don't have a good reason to do something, don't do it. Cheers.

[bassfiddler]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Thank you for all that information.

But I'm thoroughly confused as to where to start. Just to give a little background, my only experience with fingerstyle was when I took lessons a few years ago and after only a year of instruction the teacher gave me a Mel Bay book on fingerstyle and it used the P-I-M-A method (if I'm saying that correctly) of teaching finger picking patterns. It involved using thumb and three fingers, the way ljguitar teaches in his video Simple Fingerstyle Patterns. I only learned about five patterns, as I didn't feel I was ready for fingerstyle, and stopped using the book, but I still can play those very basic simple five patterns from the first few pages of the book, and nothing more.

Again, that was a few years ago and now I would be learning using DVD instruction (with book I assume) and I see all these names -- Merle Travis, Stephan Grossman, Piedmont, Happy Traum, Mark Hanson, Arnie Berle, Muriel Anderson, TheGuitarNick, and on and on. I have no idea which of these teachers' DVD courses to choose from.

Of the names I mentioned above -- and any other names you all know -- any suggestion whose DVD course/book I should choose to start with. (I'm really lost as which one to start with.) I know it's going to take months and years of practice, so I don't want to just choose one randomly and throw away my time and money.

On Edit: the two things I would like to do is (a) be able to learn "patterns" using my thumb and three fingers in the alternating style and (b) be able to develop thumb "independence" when the fingerstyle pattern is NOT alternating but requires using the thumb playing something at the SAME time the other fingers are playing.

I started with The Contemporary Art of Travis Picking a little over a year ago and HIGHLY recommend it. Combine that book with ljguitar's videos and you'll have plenty of things to work on for several months. For me, using the ring finger for the high E string took a little work, but was worth it.