I'd like to play Jazz please

[mr. beaumont]

lighten up, francis...we're just saying if you're gonna play it well, it's a big commitment, and really not a type of music you should take on for any reason other than you love it. Dr. Pert's done it and he gets that's how it works.

And you did trivialize when you said you didn't need help with the lead part, because you could "shred." Showed how little you knew about what was in store for you if you went into jazz. Folks could take that the wrong way...I could say met playing is just playing a harmonic minor scale fast with occasional pyrotechnics like a whammy dive or pinch harmonic. But I'd be wrong, because I don't know jack about metal playing.

I can play jazz, I don't assume for a second I could pull off a good shred solo...it's another "fringe" genre that requires total immersion, not a dabble.

[Bogie54]

This is the best thread ever.

[IPYF]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

lighten up, francis...we're just saying if you're gonna play it well, it's a big commitment, and really not a type of music you should take on for any reason other than you love it. Dr. Pert's done it and he gets that's how it works.

And you did trivialize when you said you didn't need help with the lead part, because you could "shred." Showed how little you knew about what was in store for you if you went into jazz. Folks could take that the wrong way...I could say met playing is just playing a harmonic minor scale fast with occasional pyrotechnics like a whammy dive or pinch harmonic. But I'd be wrong, because I don't know jack about metal playing.

I can play jazz, I don't assume for a second I could pull off a good shred solo...it's another "fringe" genre that requires total immersion, not a dabble.

I didn't start this to fight you guys. I didn't start this thread to troll you. But put yourself in my shoes for a second. I came here looking for inspiration and some direction. What I've mostly gotten is exactly that and it's very helpful. I've got plenty to work through. What I've also gotten is quite a few people who seem to think that I've come here to try and crash the private club without earning my membership.

I don't buy for a second that it's not possible to dabble in jazz. That's just as fallacious as indicating that you couldn't dabble in metal if that was something that you wanted to spend your time doing. What absolute rot. I'd say the same to anyone who tried to indicate to you that you didn't 'get' metal. That's garbage. If you enjoy playing it what else is there to 'get'?

[mr. beaumont]

If I dabbled in metal, would I be any good at it?

Same thing with jazz...jazz is a tough nut to crack because jmprovisation is such a big part of it, and the ability to improvise fluently in an idiom requires some real familiarity with that idiom's vocabulary and repertoire...which means, you're gonna have to put time in...no two ways about it.

Doesn't make jazz better or harder...but it does mean that like bluegrass, classical, flamenco, and many ethnic musics...it's a lifestyle music. You do it because you can't imagine doing anything else....or you dabble and you never really get it...

[Neal Pert]

You'll laugh at this, no doubt, but here you go. It might help you with your assumptions about me.

I completely stopped playing jazz a couple years ago, and just this week turned down three jazz gigs because I don't want to play that music any more.

I'd played with everyone on the scene here locally, played with some "national acts," the whole bit. And you know what? It felt stifling, boring, self-referential, cultish, overly traditional, etc. And that's why I stopped.

And I'm not a "jazz snob" by any means. I've done drumming gigs in pretty much all styles, and I've played with everything from multiple-Grammy winners to local heroes playing in bars where you can hear the gunshots outside. Mostly, my two criteria for taking gigs are, (1) Is the bass player OK? and (2) Will it be a good hang? Life is too short to take gigs with people who are a pain to work with, so I don't.

Also, I'm here talking to you on an acoustic guitar forum, which could provide a hint that maybe I'm re-tooling for something different.

I'm not trying to bar anyone from access to any music. I'm just trying to give a little insight into a scene that I know well so you don't make a fool of yourself if you are trying to get in. But it sounds like you're not, so cool. I find that two things about jazz are clearly true: (1) Unlike any other "popular" music, it actually IS its own (usually very small) scene with its own rules, and you burn bridges quickly if you don't understand and abide by those rules. (2) The guys who end up playing a lot are the "lifers" who can listen to three notes of an obscure jazz record and immediately name the tune, the album title, the personnel, and which guitar the dude was playing. Those are the guys that get the gigs. It's more like a classical scene than like a rock scene.

Anyway, the right reason to play anything is because it's fun to do and because maybe you can make somebody a little happier, a little better-understood, a little less stressed, or whatever.

But OK-- you're 19. I vividly remember being 19, and I work with 19 year olds for a living. Knock yourself out, be brash, and make mistakes. That's a part of your life you don't get back, so by all means enjoy it. You'll never think you're better or smarter than you do right now.

[mr. beaumont]

what town did you play in Neal? Sounds like a lot of fogeys and cocktail players in that scene. That sucks, I dig why you quit.

Modern jazz is alive and well in a lot of cities, and of course nyc...it's healthy and exciting...and nobody's playing Autumn Leaves...only problem is, to some of these young guns, I'm already a fogey. Alright, so I still like playing "But Beautiful."

[IPYF]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If I dabbled in metal, would I be any good at it?

Same thing with jazz...jazz is a tough nut to crack because jmprovisation is such a big part of it, and the ability to improvise fluently in an idiom requires some real familiarity with that idiom's vocabulary and repertoire...which means, you're gonna have to put time in...no two ways about it.

Doesn't make jazz better or harder...but it does mean that like bluegrass, classical, flamenco, and many ethnic musics...it's a lifestyle music. You do it because you can't imagine doing anything else....or you dabble and you never really get it...

But would you need to be any good at it in order to make the act of playing it valid in itself? In my opinion, absolutely not.

Most of us don't get to do music as a job. For many, myself included, it's a very expensive hobby and I love it more than any other aspect of my existence for several reasons. Firstly, it's enriching for my soul and it's relaxing. Secondly, it allows me to rehearse and go out on the road with my friends. Thirdly, like every art form it's intensely personal and expressive.

I don't want to be told I'm not going about it right or that I don't have the right attitude because as far as I'm concerned that's an exclusionary attitude and that really gets up my nose. Music is always subjective but it should always be inclusive as opposed to exclusive.

I used to run with a blues society and in the end I stopped going because I got tired of the old-hands stifling younger players. The last straw was when one of these traditional cats heckled a new kid off stage because he was soloing over a 12-bar with his chorus pedal on. I don't want to be a part of sh*t like that, and I don't want a bar of anyone who thinks that kind of thing is ok. That bullying @rse thought that he 'got' blues, when in actual fact he was just being exclusionary. That kid never came back, and I left a month or so later.

[mr. beaumont]

From your OP it sounded like you didn't actually enjoy jazz, just that you figured it would be a challenge.

Now, playing something because you actually enjoy it....that's never bad.

Off topic, but I don't trust "Blues Societies." Lots of self-proclaimed experts making a club so they can call shots, manufacturing their own "scene." curators of an artform they don't actually get, but want to define.

[Davis Webb]

I would reiterate my point, having studied jazz for only 2 years, that its a very difficult musical style. I have played for 40 years and when I did study jazz it was paid out of pocket, practiced faithfully and I got real lessons from real jazz players. And to those who would say that jazz is how you play, nonsense. Its a tradition, beginning with its roots and it clings to its roots and most regular folks would walk in, listen, and immediately know it is jazz and not folk, nor country, nor rock. It does have its elements.

It also has enormous snobbery, just overwhelming snobbery and abstraction. The snobbery comes from i dont know where but its palpable. I think because its so hard to do and takes so much time that folks feel they must have earned their stripes. Also, many people try to learn jazz and give up or fail, its intimidating. To overlook just how complex it is and to say, just play bro', is setting someone up for failure. Its as hard as classical and equally unapproachable. You can improvise folk or country, try learning jazz by just picking up a few chords.

As far as abstract, jazz tries to not be too deriviative or cliche, so it explores alot of more complex chords, key changes, modes, you name it. Its so far removed from accessiblity, its like watching a chess match for most folks. You walk into a jazz club and I love jazz, but hours of guitar improvising really doesnt turn my crank. Its cerebral and some of its offshoots are much more accessible. Thats why I go on and on about Pat Metheny, he made jazz approachable.

John McLauglins new work is all a return to his pure jazz roots and while I listen to it when I can, I much prefer Shakti. It was more accessible. Playing jazz is like sipping expensive single malt. Its an acquired taste. Hence its marginal popularity. Music has moved on and jazz hasnt. Sad thing, but alt rock, indie ambient and new age, a la Michael Hedges, has paved new roads.

I would say as one metal player to another, forget jazz and master acoustic fingerstyle. Hammer like Justin King or Don Ross. I think they are at the cutting edge now.

[IPYF]

Originally Posted by Neal Pert

You'll laugh at this, no doubt, but here you go. It might help you with your assumptions about me.

I completely stopped playing jazz a couple years ago, and just this week turned down three jazz gigs because I don't want to play that music any more.

I'd played with everyone on the scene here locally, played with some "national acts," the whole bit. And you know what? It felt stifling, boring, self-referential, cultish, overly traditional, etc. And that's why I stopped.

And I'm not a "jazz snob" by any means. I've done drumming gigs in pretty much all styles, and I've played with everything from multiple-Grammy winners to local heroes playing in bars where you can hear the gunshots outside. Mostly, my two criteria for taking gigs are, (1) Is the bass player OK? and (2) Will it be a good hang? Life is too short to take gigs with people who are a pain to work with, so I don't.

Also, I'm here talking to you on an acoustic guitar forum, which could provide a hint that maybe I'm re-tooling for something different.

I'm not trying to bar anyone from access to any music. I'm just trying to give a little insight into a scene that I know well so you don't make a fool of yourself if you are trying to get in. But it sounds like you're not, so cool. I find that two things about jazz are clearly true: (1) Unlike any other "popular" music, it actually IS its own (usually very small) scene with its own rules, and you burn bridges quickly if you don't understand and abide by those rules. (2) The guys who end up playing a lot are the "lifers" who can listen to three notes of an obscure jazz record and immediately name the tune, the album title, the personnel, and which guitar the dude was playing. Those are the guys that get the gigs. It's more like a classical scene than like a rock scene.

Anyway, the right reason to play anything is because it's fun to do and because maybe you can make somebody a little happier, a little better-understood, a little less stressed, or whatever.

But OK-- you're 19. I vividly remember being 19, and I work with 19 year olds for a living. Knock yourself out, be brash, and make mistakes. That's a part of your life you don't get back, so by all means enjoy it. You'll never think you're better or smarter than you do right now.

Why would I laugh at this? This is perfectly logical, you've qualified yourself perfectly and it's a far cry from your last post which felt downright provocative. I do honestly get the feeling that if we were having this conversation in person we'd probably be on the same page long before now, but that's the primary issue with internet forums ie. issues with implied tone.

I'm not trying to get into the jazz scene, nor do I plan on it any time in the future. My only objective is to stretch myself on a personal level; to try and be a better guitarist because at the moment I'm a very slack one. As I've stated a couple of times now I don't believe that it's possible to not 'get' something and I don't think there's a way to do any musical genre 'wrong'. The way you go about your music may limit what you can do when you're in the mix with other people in certain situations but that's only a problem if you want to be in on something that you're not. That's when you have to look at your objectives and approach. By the same token however some might argue that the above attitude might explain how I became a lazy musician in the first place.

It disappoints me that the reality of the jazz scene as you've explained it from your experiences does seem to be very exclusionary and insular. I don't agree with that on a personal level and it saddens me that it's the case. Clearly it's not my 'scene', but I don't think for a second that any of the above would stop me from learning jazz music at my own pace.

Also, I'm 25. I'm not sure if your math is out or mine is.

Off topic, but I don't trust "Blues Societies." Lots of self-proclaimed experts making a club so they can call shots, manufacturing their own "scene." curators of an artform they don't actually get, but want to define.

Yeah. This instance was very disappointing from a social perspective. The organisers were really keen to get younger people enthusiastic about the blues. They were trying really hard, social media, advertising, the works but they just couldn't get people to stay and they couldn't figure out why. The problem was essentially completely based around their old guard being really frosty and traditional. Very few newcomers stayed for more than a few weeks. I tried to tough it out but came to the conclusion that it wasn't really offer me anything.

[Neal Pert]

OK, so here's maybe a useful comparison.

Let's say we were traveling to Italy together. You'd have some options as you'd prepare:

1. You could do nothing.
2. You could learn the tourist words and phrases like Buon Giorno.
3. You could take a year-long intensive course in learning to speak and read Italian.
4. You could immerse yourself not only in the language, but in the geography and culture of Italy, learning to cook the food authentically, learning about Bernini and Dante and modern artists and poets as well.

I'd argue that jazz is itself its own musical culture with its own language. There are high and low forms of it, places of great beauty and innovation, and places that are stagnant. Either way, to make a real contribution, you have to know the language. You need to know how the verbs work, you need to develop the vocabulary, and you need to get all the subtle shades of meaning, as well. It's not inherently elitist for the Italians to expect you to know a little Italian, and it's mandatory that if you work in Italy you'd have mastered the language and know a lot about the culture as well.

So, for me, learning a language has one goal-- to communicate. The more you know of the language, the more you can communicate. If all you want to do is learn jazz to beef up your other languages, great.

Dear God, this is what happens to me when my wife is over there working on a writing project. I go on and on. Someone unplug my amp.

[815C]

Don't forget to have fun.

[jersey]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

...and nobody's playing Autumn Leaves...

I love Autumn Leaves. How dare you!

[redavide]

Originally Posted by jersey

I love Autumn Leaves. How dare you!

So do I! And of course they're playing "Autumn Leaves" . . . "Autumn Leaves" pretty much has no limits, so why would anyone stop playing it? I recently saw Keith Jarrett play it live -- amazing . . .

By the way IPYF, "Autumn Leaves" might be a good tune to start with. And end with.

[mr. beaumont]

Hey, for the record, I still like "Autumn Leaves" too.

And the scene Neal Pert described is not the scene everywhere (but that kind of jazz scene most certainly does exist)

But people not playing "Autumn Leaves" isn't terrible. There's HUNDREDS of young, vibrant players out there, writing their own music, taking chances, doing new things. It's hip as hell, the players are monsters, and no, they're not household names yet. So what? I hear people whine all the time that jazz is dead. No it isn't...you just stopped listening to anything new.

Check out...

Vijay Iyer
Seamus Blake
Jake Saslow
Danny Grissett
Christian Scott
Tom Wetmore
Jonathan Blake
Marcus Strickland
Mike Moreno
Nir Felder
Francisco Mela
David Sanchez
Mary Halvorson
Anat Cohen
Avishai Cohen
Ambrose Akinsmuire

that's just what's the last played in my iTunes right now...there's a big world of music out there...some of these cats even play "Autumn Leaves" too!