Is guitar a good instrument to learn music theory?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug...

The 1st string 'e' with harmonics and fundamentals anywhere on the neck I believe has the most (5 fundamentals and 3 harmonics).

Using harmonics is pretty advanced! I'd save that for another day if someone is just trying to learn to read. But how do you find 5 "open 1st string" e's below the 12th fret?

And of course, if you're counting harmonics, you should probably count string bending, too!

[Paikon]

IMO theory can be taught on a guitar but harmony is better on piano

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

…And of course, if you're counting harmonics, you should probably count string bending, too!

Hi Doug...

Not the way most people bend!

They often only get partway (not even most of the way) to the next note...but thanks for a new supplemental chapter for my syllabus.

I don't teach theory, I teach guitar with some applied theory. And I teach intermediate to advanced students, so at least a workable level of harmonics are either there-already or very near.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Using harmonics is pretty advanced! I'd save that for another day if someone is just trying to learn to read. But how do you find 5 "open 1st string" e's below the 12th fret?

And of course, if you're counting harmonics, you should probably count string bending, too!

Why below the 12th fret?

fundamentals
string 1: fret 0
string 2: fret 5
string 3: fret 9
string 4: fret 14
string 5: fret 19

harmonics
string 5: fret 7
string 5: fret 19
string 6: fret 5
string 6: fret 24

Not sure how much this helps music theory though.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Why below the 12th fret?

Because we're talking about basic stuff here, understanding theory and chord construction.
Would anyone really start to teach someone who doesn't know how to construct a C triad by using notes at the 19th fret? I wouldn't. By the time someone is reading music and even considers going playing a note they read off paper on the 19th fret of the 5th string, they're probably beyond intro music theory lessons. In any case, everything above the 12th is just a repeat, an octave up.

Not sure how much this helps music theory though.

Precisely. Constructing chords at the 19th fret, combining harmonics to form chords - all very little to do with conveying basic info about theory. My original point was that the guitar isn't *that* complex, and if you're trying to explain basic chord construction to someone, you can make it pretty straightforward on the guitar, not by demoing ways to play chords at the 19th fret, combining harmonics and bent strings :-), and other guitar tricks, but by using the fretboard in the non-dusty area where students are likely to be comfortable, and that we can show them that there just a few *practical* places to realistically play the notes, and not scare them with the idea that there are near infinite places to find notes on the guitar.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Because we're talking about basic stuff here, understanding theory and chord construction.
Would anyone really start to teach someone who doesn't know how to construct a C triad by using notes at the 19th fret? I wouldn't. By the time someone is reading music and even considers going playing a note they read off paper on the 19th fret of the 5th string, they're probably beyond intro music theory lessons. In any case, everything above the 12th is just a repeat, an octave up.



Precisely. Constructing chords at the 19th fret, combining harmonics to form chords - all very little to do with conveying basic info about theory. My original point was that the guitar isn't *that* complex, and if you're trying to explain basic chord construction to someone, you can make it pretty straightforward on the guitar, not by demoing ways to play chords at the 19th fret, combining harmonics and bent strings :-), and other guitar tricks, but by using the fretboard in the non-dusty area where students are likely to be comfortable, and that we can show them that there just a few *practical* places to realistically play the notes, and not scare them with the idea that there are near infinite places to find notes on the guitar.

Was just funning you of course, and for beginners probably the fretboard should be considered to end at the fifth fret. Not so sure about non standard tuning either.

[Doug Young]

I'd definitely avoid non-standard tunings from the perspective of learning theory. Like the other things I was complaining about, it just muddies the waters. If you keep it simple and stay on focus, the guitar can be great way to understand music theory. There are aspects of it that are actually simpler than piano (like the consistency of half-step/whole steps, as opposed to the black notes on a piano). But if we get all guitaristic on them and start talking about chords high up the neck using artificial harmonics in an alternate tuning :-), well....

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd definitely avoid non-standard tunings from the perspective of learning theory.

Hi Doug...

Yes, beginning theory needs to be a simple as possible.

However, in my pursuit to really 'know' DADGAD, since chatting with you about it at Healdsburg, I've started re-learning scale fingerings and basic etudes, and even all my inversions in DADGAD, first for key of D and then I'll expand from there.

I was blown away when someone at Healdsburg in a workshop I attended suggested to Al Petteway that DADGAD was pretty narrow and limiting, and he said it's his main tuning, and then broke into some full-blown Jazz chord comping in key of Bb in DADGAD.

Back on target, this discussion is still about whether guitar is a good instrument for learning music theory. Even though I've taught students bits-n-pieces of theory on guitar for years, there are just aspects of it that it is so much easier to comprehend on keyboards.

There may even be aspects which are explained best on brass, or woodwind…perhaps percussion (rhythm).

Most people don't want to pursue a 'raw' approach to theory, but theory as it applies to guitar. When the question is asked, "Should I learn music theory…" or "What are good books for learning theory on guitar…" it seems kind of like someone asking "Should I learn math?" or "Should I learn English composition?" or maybe "How do I learn to record guitars…"

These are topics which encompass far more information than most people ever intend to learn/use.

But it makes for interesting threads…

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I was blown away when someone at Healdsburg in a workshop I attended suggested to Al Petteway that DADGAD was pretty narrow and limiting, and he said it's his main tuning, and then broke into some full-blown Jazz chord comping in key of Bb in DADGAD.

Yep, contrary to popular opinion, you can do anything in DAGDAD (or just about any other tuning). One thing that's interesting to think about in DADGAD is that middle three strings are the same as standard, and the remaining 3 strings are all octaves of those same 3 "standard" strings (2 of them, actually). So DADGAD could be viewed as a subset of standard! in any case, the close intervals definitely lend the tuning to some nice jazz voicings. I have a brief section on altered chords in my book and demo some typical jazz progressions. I have a friend who does a lot of jazz standards in DADGAD, and Al does, as you noticed. Juber, of course, as well. Pierre Bensusan can, too. Tell him that DADGAD is limited to whatever, and he'll whip into a solid replica of Joe Pass faster than you can blink, and play thru standards in all 12 keys!

I don't think I'd pick DADGAD as the tuning to start someone out on in a theory vein, but I think I've solidified my chord construction knowledge a lot by using alternate tunings. We're so geometry based on the guitar, and even if you know theory well, we still fall back on those shapes we know without thinking about it. When I pick up a new tuning, I'm either forced to actually think about chord construction and what notes are in a key and go find them, or if I'm in random noodling mode and find a cool sound, I have to go the other way and figure out what it is. Also great for ear training. In some ways, it just reinforces everything, and you realize that the rules of music are the same in any tuning, (or any instrument) and it becomes less about moving your hand thru well-worn paths, and more about being in control of what you intend to play. So maybe even for a student, if they're at a certain point, giving them an assignment to, say, play ii-V-I around the circle of 5ths in DADGAD, or some other tuning, would be a great way to see if they really understand.

[johnny196775]

Here is something i heard recently about photography which also applies to music theory.


Learn the rules so you can break them like a pro.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

…One thing that's interesting to think about in DADGAD is that middle three strings are the same as standard, and the remaining 3 strings are all octaves of those same 3 "standard" strings (2 of them, actually). So DADGAD could be viewed as a subset of standard!

Hi Doug...

I've crept-up on DADGAD with a few students who were struggling but wanted to play in alternate tunings (and understand what they are doing) by starting them with simple Dropped D, then after a month adding Double Dropped D, and finally altering the 2nd string to A.

Then I started them on the open scales (first position).

Taking Al Petteway's course at Healdsburg (Appalachian Blues in DADGAD) really helped me to begin to discover chord shapes and inversions which were actually 'playable' feeling less acrobatic than some I'd attempted.

I'll think I'm closer to having arrived if I can jam in a different key than D or G in DADGAD without the other players realizing I'm not in standard tuning. Of course it might be a challenge to find an open jam which doesn't play everything in G or D.

Sometimes it's a Catalyst to be around someone as versitile as you or Al Petteway (& I'm sure Bensusan, or Juber) and just watching, asking, listening. Knowing the theory of chord construction and scale construction certainly help when it comes to adapting to new tunings.

I've had a number of students who are less interesting musically because they memorized the TAB of a Petteway song or two, but didn't know/realize what they were doing musically. They couldn't even tell me the key or identify the simple chord progressions...but they could play the notes.