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  #1  
Old 08-17-2014, 06:43 PM
Gary-N-LA Gary-N-LA is offline
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Smile Which Archtops will fill a room unamplified?

Having recently been introduced the archtops by you folks on this forum, I'm intrigued. I plan to play a few this week for the first time. I'm looking for an instrument to play solo fingerstyle American Songbook tunes such as "The Way You Look Tonight," which I've just started to learn.

I'm wondering one thing: Are there archtops that produce enough volume to play acoustically without amplification? I'm looking not only for specific model recommendations, but more broadly, for the general characteristics of particular archtops that would make them loud enough to fill this niche.

Don't get me wrong: I'm happy to get an archtop with electronics and amplify it, but I'd love to have the option not to.
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  #2  
Old 08-17-2014, 07:58 PM
jersey jersey is offline
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Any archtop that's worth it's salt should be easily audible in any acoustic situation. That said, the bigger the body, the more volume.
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:29 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary-N-LA View Post
...I'm wondering one thing: Are there archtops that produce enough volume to play acoustically without amplification? I'm looking not only for specific model recommendations, but more broadly, for the general characteristics of particular archtops that would make them loud enough to fill this niche...
You've come to the right place, and while everyone has their (equally valid) favorites the common DNA of archtop guitars is that they were created to be heard unamplified in a large setting, as jersey suggests; I started learning to play on archtop guitars in 1962, and over the years I've developed a preference for the big-body models (18"+). Traditional archtops - those constructed with tops/backs carved from thick blocks of wood - were originally designed along violin principles, and if you're going to successfully reproduce a range similar to that of the cello you'll need a comparably-sized body. If you're fortunate enough to be able to A/B 16"/17"/ 18" instruments at a vintage dealer, as a general rule (YMMV) there are subtleties in the tone of the larger instruments - richer bass, smoother mids, sweeter highs - that are unavailable in smaller examples. As far as volume is concerned there's a definite technique that needs to be mastered to achieve the best results (alluded to in your other post), but it's well worth the effort; these babies were designed to be heard above a 16-piece horn section in the Big-Band era, so there's loads of dynamic range in there - one Stromberg owner was asked to lighten up when the band's assistant director, sent out into the audience of a large auditorium to help balance the sound, said that he couldn't hear the rest of the rhythm section over the guitar . I'll also be the first to tell you that archtops, although justly classified as "guitar royalty" in a recent Ibanez ad, are far more idiosyncratic and temperamental in nature than any flattop you're likely to have encountered; simply put, if you've got a certain tone in your head (and every player does) you'll be kissing lots of frogs before you finally find your prince(ss). My advice: be patient and play as many as you can while you're waiting, if only for the learning experience - you'll know when your perfect match turns up...
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Old 08-17-2014, 09:27 PM
jcarlos jcarlos is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
You've come to the right place, and while everyone has their (equally valid) favorites the common DNA of archtop guitars is that they were created to be heard unamplified in a large setting, as jersey suggests; I started learning to play on archtop guitars in 1962, and over the years I've developed a preference for the big-body models (18"+). Traditional archtops - those constructed with tops/backs carved from thick blocks of wood - were originally designed along violin principles, and if you're going to successfully reproduce a range similar to that of the cello you'll need a comparably-sized body. If you're fortunate enough to be able to A/B 16"/17"/ 18" instruments at a vintage dealer, as a general rule (YMMV) there are subtleties in the tone of the larger instruments - richer bass, smoother mids, sweeter highs - that are unavailable in smaller examples. As far as volume is concerned there's a definite technique that needs to be mastered to achieve the best results (alluded to in your other post), but it's well worth the effort; these babies were designed to be heard above a 16-piece horn section in the Big-Band era, so there's loads of dynamic range in there - one Stromberg owner was asked to lighten up when the band's assistant director, sent out into the audience of a large auditorium to help balance the sound, said that he couldn't hear the rest of the rhythm section over the guitar . I'll also be the first to tell you that archtops, although justly classified as "guitar royalty" in a recent Ibanez ad, are far more idiosyncratic and temperamental in nature than any flattop you're likely to have encountered; simply put, if you've got a certain tone in your head (and every player does) you'll be kissing lots of frogs before you finally find your prince(ss). My advice: be patient and play as many as you can while you're waiting, if only for the learning experience - you'll know when your perfect match turns up...
18"+, wow, I have yet to see or play one of these. Do you know if any current company produces a big body of those sizes? I would love to play one of those to try them out.
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Old 08-17-2014, 09:51 PM
RyanM1 RyanM1 is offline
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I'll just add, your approach to playing and the guitar's setup makes a big difference in how well it projects.

These videos are invaluable:



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  #6  
Old 08-17-2014, 11:46 PM
Gary-N-LA Gary-N-LA is offline
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Thanks to you archtop guys for enlightening me. I must say, however, I'm playing solo guitar, not rhythm guitar, so I'm looking for a guitar that by itself will fill a room with American Songbook classics.
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  #7  
Old 08-17-2014, 11:53 PM
good_hillbilly good_hillbilly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary-N-LA View Post
Having recently been introduced the archtops by you folks on this forum, I'm intrigued. I plan to play a few this week for the first time. I'm looking for an instrument to play solo fingerstyle American Songbook tunes such as "The Way You Look Tonight," which I've just started to learn.

I'm wondering one thing: Are there archtops that produce enough volume to play acoustically without amplification? I'm looking not only for specific model recommendations, but more broadly, for the general characteristics of particular archtops that would make them loud enough to fill this niche.

Don't get me wrong: I'm happy to get an archtop with electronics and amplify it, but I'd love to have the option not to.


That's so interesting. What a cool choice of songs!!

I think that although archtops are rarely used for fingerstyle playing, they are an EXCELLENT choice for it. Archtops tend not to have a lot of sustain, but are very articulate and punchy. That's exactly the combination you want for fingerpicking. You don't get the flab and overtones and reverberation you do with, e.g., some dreadnoughts.

I think to get a good loud one, you may want to get one with a full 25.4" scale. Lots of archtops are short scale guitars, and that helps jazz fingering of course, but it doesn't drive the bridge, and thus the top, as hard.

A large-bodied one helps too. Certainly a carved top rather than a laminated top, but that's obvious. Try normal phosphor bronze strings -- certainly not jazz flatwounds. (I'm not sure whether having big f-holes helps, but I actually think I read that it does not -- the f-holes apparently don't work exactly like the soundhole on a flattop.)

The only thing that archtops don't really work well for is strumming. If you're going to do Eagles covers, get a flattop! They just don't have the overtones to hold chordal sounds the way you want. Plus, a hard-strumming player could possibly bonk a floating bridge out of place -- which would be bad.

Personally I think acoustic archtops -- i.e., those without magnetic pickups -- are the coolest thing since sliced bread!!!
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:07 AM
jcarlos jcarlos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by good_hillbilly View Post

The only thing that archtops don't really work well for is strumming. If you're going to do Eagles covers, get a flattop! They just don't have the overtones to hold chordal sounds the way you want. Plus, a hard-strumming player could possibly bonk a floating bridge out of place -- which would be bad.
Not true, plenty of songs use archtops for rhythm which is strumming and they sound great. I do it all the time.

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Originally Posted by good_hillbilly View Post

Personally I think acoustic archtops -- i.e., those without magnetic pickups -- are the coolest thing since sliced bread!!!
I however do agree with you on this!
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  #9  
Old 08-18-2014, 07:40 AM
backdrifter backdrifter is offline
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I would imagine this one would meet your requirements!

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/78654
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:22 AM
Gary-N-LA Gary-N-LA is offline
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I would imagine this one would meet your requirements!

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/78654
You got that right! What a cool guitar. How much soul would that thing have? A guitar made the year the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Wow.
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:37 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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There's a lot of misinformation on the web about archtops--and in this thread!

Here's what you need to know...

An acoustic archtop can actually be quite versatile. But not all are the same...some will sound better than others "strummed," others will be better at barking out a swing rhythm. Generally, size and bracing has a lot to do with this...but there's always exceptions.

The amplified tone of an archtop with a magnetic pickup may be nothing like it's acoustic voice. Many people pick up an acoustic archtop and expect a dark, mellow tone...and get the opposite!

Strings matter too.

So, let me first ask what your budget is, then ask for a few examples of archtop tones you like...then I can actually give advice on what guitar can "fill a room" for ya.
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:53 AM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by jcarlos View Post
18"+, wow, I have yet to see or play one of these. Do you know if any current company produces a big body of those sizes? I would love to play one of those to try them out.
In production guitars there's the Gibson Super 400 and Heritage Super Eagle, both of which are "officially" cataloged as electrics but can be made to order as full acoustic instruments (I've played examples of both); in addition, nearly all of the small-shop/individual archtop makers will build you an 18-incher to order for an upcharge ($300-2000+ depending on whom you choose) over their 16"/17" guitars, and Jim Triggs includes a 19" Stromberg 400 tribute in his regular lineup that IMO is perhaps the ultimate archtop guitar. Finally, if you're willing to take a bit of a gamble Yunzhi will custom-build you a hand-carved instrument to order for the price of a laminated upscale Yamaha/Ibanez or low-end Eastman jazzbox; many of the regulars on the Archtop forum have bought them sight unseen (type in "Yunzhi guitars" in the Search box), and while there may be some minor issues in terms of refinement (usually nothing that a first-class setup job can't fix) I've yet to hear anyone complain about their tone. Just for the heck of it, back in April I requested a quote on a Super 400-style 18" non-cut with a few custom appointments (neck width/contour, string spacing, inlay, fret type/width/height), and they came back with a figure of well under $1100 with HSC; at that price you almost can't afford not to own one if you're an archtop lover, and but for some long-needed house repairs that since turned into emergencies (with the additional expense implied) I'd be sitting here playing one right now as we speak...
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Old 08-18-2014, 09:01 AM
backdrifter backdrifter is offline
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Originally Posted by Gary-N-LA View Post
You got that right! What a cool guitar. How much soul would that thing have? A guitar made the year the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Wow.
Amen to that! That's a great price for that guitar too. I was (and am) very, very tempted. I just bought another used guitar in the same price range. I can't afford yet another one, and I don't think I'm willing to part with the one I just bought. But man, I would LOVE to play that big booming guitar!
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Old 08-18-2014, 09:22 AM
kayakman kayakman is offline
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Hey backdrifter! That Epiphone is right here where I live on Staten Island,I was thinking about giving the guy a call a playing it....Brian....It`s a good price for that Epi....
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Old 08-18-2014, 09:26 AM
Archtop Guy Archtop Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary-N-LA View Post
Thanks to you archtop guys for enlightening me. I must say, however, I'm playing solo guitar, not rhythm guitar, so I'm looking for a guitar that by itself will fill a room with American Songbook classics.
I'm like you then. Check out my YouTube channel here.



I have no illusions that I'm a super guitar player, but at least I can find my own videos, and it seems to line up with what you do, There are lots of acoustic archtop and American Songbook examples on my channel.

BTW, although I've only played acoustic arctops for thirty years, much less than Mr.DR's sixty years, I'm not yet a convert to 18" guitars. 16" or 17" have been working out just fine for me. I've played lots of Super 400's and haven't found one that spoke to me like my L-5's. Just me, I guess. But keep an open mind. We don't all agree on this one.
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