Tonedexter question

[rb1591]

I've been following the Tonedexter discussions and want the opinion/insight of users. It would seem that in both the training and live play, the instrument's pickup largely acts as a trigger, so the quality of the pickup is (within reason) irrelevant. In other words a $50 STB without preamp will work as well as a more refined unit with carefully eq'ed preamp. Is this correct or are there other considerations?

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by rb1591

I've been following the Tonedexter discussions and want the opinion/insight of users. It would seem that in both the training and live play, the instrument's pickup largely acts as a trigger, so the quality of the pickup is (within reason) irrelevant. In other words a $50 STB without preamp will work as well as a more refined unit with carefully eq'ed preamp. Is this correct or are there other considerations?

Yes. The pickup is nearly irrelevant.

What I'm noticing as I hear more and more recorded examples is that the quick attack of an undersaddle pickup "may" have an ever so slight advantage in a very strictly accurate (or mic'd) sound sense. But that should not be taken as a real advantage and it's just my opinion any way.

Right now, for $450 (Tonedexter plus a JJB pickup) you can have a system that sounds astounding.

[Doug Young]

I wouldn't say the pickup is irrelevant, but clearly ToneDexter can close the gap between the pickup's tone and a mic. So the differences between different pickups may be minimized.

But from your question, I get the idea that you are thinking of TD as some sort of synthesized sound module that gets triggered by the pickup. That's not how it works. The sound *is* your pickup, just processed. You could think of TD as a very sophisticated EQ (tho that's not doing it full justice). So far as I know, it can't produce any sound that isn't there in your pickup. For example, if you use a magnetic pickup and try to do body percussion, that isn't going to work. The pickup doesn't pick up that sound, so there's no signal there for TD to process. I suspect there are many more subtle ways that the pickup's inherent characteristics can't be completely eliminated, but it probably gets into splitting hairs.

My vote would be to start with as good a sound as you can give to Tone Dexter, both from the pickup and the mic. It may not matter as much, since TD can try to make up differences, but I think you'd find some difference. Then again "better" is all subjective, you never know what will produce a sound you like. And I wouldn't go out and buy a better pickup just to use with TD - just let it do it's thing and improve the sound you have.

[rb1591]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I wouldn't say the pickup is irrelevant, but clearly ToneDexter can close the gap between the pickup's tone and a mic. So the differences between different pickups may be minimized.

But from your question, I get the idea that you are thinking of TD as some sort of synthesized sound module that gets triggered by the pickup. That's not how it works. The sound *is* your pickup, just processed. You could think of TD as a very sophisticated EQ (tho that's not doing it full justice). So far as I know, it can't produce any sound that isn't there in your pickup. For example, if you use a magnetic pickup and try to do body percussion, that isn't going to work. The pickup doesn't pick up that sound, so there's no signal there for TD to process. I suspect there are many more subtle ways that the pickup's inherent characteristics can't be completely eliminated, but it probably gets into splitting hairs.

My vote would be to start with as good a sound as you can give to Tone Dexter, both from the pickup and the mic. It may not matter as much, since TD can try to make up differences, but I think you'd find some difference. Then again "better" is all subjective, you never know what will produce a sound you like. And I wouldn't go out and buy a better pickup just to use with TD - just let it do it's thing and improve the sound you have.

Thank you both for your input. Doug, you really helped clarify the concept for me. In one guitar I have both a K&K mini and a Barbera Soloist – two very different, but excellent pickups. Should make an interesting and insightful experiment when I get a TD … hopefully will be in the next couple of weeks.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rb1591

Thank you both for your input. Doug, you really helped clarify the concept for me. In one guitar I have both a K&K mini and a Barbera Soloist – two very different, but excellent pickups. Should make an interesting and insightful experiment when I get a TD … hopefully will be in the next couple of weeks.

Both the K&K and Barbara should work fine. Just be aware that you'll have to train the Barbara by playing only alternating strings 6,4,2, or 5,3,1. The Barbara elements are out of phase on adjacent strings, and that confuses TD. So no strumming during training. Once it's trained, you can play anything and it's fine.

[Alex6strings]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Both the K&K and Barbara should work fine. Just be aware that you'll have to train the Barbara by playing only alternating strings 6,4,2, or 5,3,1. The Barbara elements are out of phase on adjacent strings, and that confuses TD. So no strumming during training. Once it's trained, you can play anything and it's fine.

Just out of interest Doug i'm guessing a pickup like the AP5pro which has 6 individual piezos and a mic inside the guitar would be similar to the Barbara for training purposes? Also have you or anyone else you know trained the TD with a pickup that includes a mic?

I find the recorded sound I get with just the AP5pro is quite good when you get the mix of mic and pickup right. It's definitely a lot better than just the piezo and gets rid of a lot of quack. Exciting to see how much further the TD takes it.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Alex6strings

Just out of interest Doug i'm guessing a pickup like the AP5pro which has 6 individual piezos and a mic inside the guitar would be similar to the Barbara for training purposes? Also have you or anyone else you know trained the TD with a pickup that includes a mic?

I find the recorded sound I get with just the AP5pro is quite good when you get the mix of mic and pickup right. It's definitely a lot better than just the piezo and gets rid of a lot of quack. Exciting to see how much further the TD takes it.

I don't know about the AP5pro, it's not the individual piezo elements, its whether they play any games with phase. I haven't tried using an internal mic- you'd have to have something to blend the mic before TD and I don't have any system like that. I did try to just train an internal mic, and that didnt work so well, tho I should try that again.

[Alex6strings]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I don't know about the AP5pro, it's not the individual piezo elements, its whether they play any games with phase. I haven't tried using an internal mic- you'd have to have something to blend the mic before TD and I don't have any system like that. I did try to just train an internal mic, and that didnt work so well, tho I should try that again.

Ok, I see, thanks for the info. The mic has it's own levels so blending it should be ok. The phase thing can be worked around as you said so I guess I'll know when i start to train. That's if TD makes it down here soon. cheers

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by rb1591

Thank you both for your input. Doug, you really helped clarify the concept for me. In one guitar I have both a K&K mini and a Barbera Soloist – two very different, but excellent pickups. Should make an interesting and insightful experiment when I get a TD … hopefully will be in the next couple of weeks.

Love it! My idea of a ready-for-anything rig is a guitar equipped with these two passive pickups and ToneDexter. Albeit, you'll need to use a different training method for the Soloist. Doug explained that.

I'm curious, have you had any success with blending the Soloist and Pure Mini signals? I'm thinking that might be difficult because the Soloist is wired so that adjacent crystals are out of phase with each other.

[DSP Andy]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I don't know about the AP5pro, it's not the individual piezo elements, its whether they play any games with phase. I haven't tried using an internal mic- you'd have to have something to blend the mic before TD and I don't have any system like that. I did try to just train an internal mic, and that didnt work so well, tho I should try that again.

What we have seen with pickups and ToneDexter, having trained it thousands of times in the lab while watching training metrics, is that low distortion and good string-to-string balance are paramount.

A distorted pickup produces overtones not present in the microphone signal (assuming the microphone is low distortion) and this tends to inhibit higher frequency accuracy in the resulting wavemap.

Having said that, there is a diminishing returns effect in pickup choices - if a pickup is low distortion and has good balance, but is weak on high frequency content, TD will fix it. But if there are elements of the sound that are altogether missing from the pickup signal, TD has nothing to work with.

I personally use multi-element K&K's on all my guitars as my preferred choice, but I have a couple that also have cheap USTs, and sound almost as good.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by DSP Andy

What we have seen with pickups and ToneDexter, having trained it thousands of times in the lab while watching training metrics, is that low distortion and good string-to-string balance are paramount.

A distorted pickup produces overtones not present in the microphone signal (assuming the microphone is low distortion) and this tends to inhibit higher frequency accuracy in the resulting wavemap.

Having said that, there is a diminishing returns effect in pickup choices - if a pickup is low distortion and has good balance, but is weak on high frequency content, TD will fix it. But if there are elements of the sound that are altogether missing from the pickup signal, TD has nothing to work with.

I personally use multi-element K&K's on all my guitars as my preferred choice, but I have a couple that also have cheap USTs, and sound almost as good.

I've just received my ToneDexter here in the UK, thanks to somebody that was kind enough to act as intermediary.

My guitar is fitted with a K&K pure mini and a Baggs Element (active) UST. Could you please comment as to which of these options would be a preferable feed to the ToneDexter? From your comment above, I am assuming it would be the K&K?

I have a decent Audio Technica small diaphragm condenser mic arriving tomorrow, so I'm really excited about recording some wave maps and getting to grips with this new technology!

[James May]

Originally Posted by AndyC

I've just received my ToneDexter here in the UK, thanks to somebody that was kind enough to act as intermediary.

My guitar is fitted with a K&K pure mini and a Baggs Element (active) UST. Could you please comment as to which of these options would be a preferable feed to the ToneDexter? From your comment above, I am assuming it would be the K&K?

I have a decent Audio Technica small diaphragm condenser mic arriving tomorrow, so I'm really excited about recording some wave maps and getting to grips with this new technology!

The answer to which is best depends on how much feedback immunity you need. You'll get more immunity with the Element, but a slightly more natural sound with the K&K. Since it's so easy, try both and see which you prefer. You might even decide to keep both and create WaveMaps for each of them.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by James May

The answer to which is best depends on how much feedback immunity you need. You'll get more immunity with the Element, but a slightly more natural sound with the K&K. Since it's so easy, try both and see which you prefer. You might even decide to keep both and create WaveMaps for each of them.

Thanks James - looking forward to experimenting....

[rb1591]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Love it! My idea of a ready-for-anything rig is a guitar equipped with these two passive pickups and ToneDexter. Albeit, you'll need to use a different training method for the Soloist. Doug explained that.

I'm curious, have you had any success with blending the Soloist and Pure Mini signals? I'm thinking that might be difficult because the Soloist is wired so that adjacent crystals are out of phase with each other.

I use the Soloist far more than the K&K ... just suits my playing style and ears more. I have tried the combination a couple of times at home and also at a gig, treating the k&k pretty much as second source. In both cases, I didn't like the results ... these two did not compliment each other in my rather quick experiments. Don't know if this has to do with design of Soloist or sonic characteristics of each. Since I really didn't hear anything worth pursuing, I haven't worked with it any further.

Like everyone else on this forum, I'm always looking for ways to improve my live sound ... and often frustrated. On the other hand, it's a fun hobby. However, I often come back to this: what works well in my music room at home is not necessarily what works well on stage. In other words, "my guitar but louder" seems like a great idea, but in real life gig situations ... that may be a different thing altogether. BTW, Gary, the closest to the ideal that I have heard is the YouTube video with Cormac McCarthy (songwriter, not author) using a custom Aura image with the original AST AUra Blender.

All that to say, I'd love to hear from those who are using the TD in real world gig situations. How's it working on the job, folks?

[rb1591]

Originally Posted by DSP Andy

What we have seen with pickups and ToneDexter, having trained it thousands of times in the lab while watching training metrics, is that low distortion and good string-to-string balance are paramount.

A distorted pickup produces overtones not present in the microphone signal (assuming the microphone is low distortion) and this tends to inhibit higher frequency accuracy in the resulting wavemap.

Having said that, there is a diminishing returns effect in pickup choices - if a pickup is low distortion and has good balance, but is weak on high frequency content, TD will fix it. But if there are elements of the sound that are altogether missing from the pickup signal, TD has nothing to work with.

I personally use multi-element K&K's on all my guitars as my preferred choice, but I have a couple that also have cheap USTs, and sound almost as good.

Andy, what do you mean by "low distortion?" Are you referring to a quality of the pickup and/or preamp itself or the input level on the ToneDexter. Obviously the K&K sbt would be included in you choices, but can you give some other examples of pickups capable of good string to string balance, low distortion and with which you have had good success.