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  #1  
Old 04-04-2021, 06:40 PM
DaveKell DaveKell is offline
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Default Do Ya FEEL it?

Twice in recent days I’ve been told the same thing from two guys who are masters of guitar playing. I asked each of them to improvise a solo break on a new original song. They each nailed a stunning solo on the first run through. Each time I instantly stopped playing and asked them to show me what they had just done. The first one told me he had no idea what he’d done, he was just playing along with me. The next day the second guy tried to recreate his solo but was nowhere near the magic of when we were doing the song. He finally said “sorry, I was going by feel. It’s what you’ll have to do. The worst solos are memorized ones. I just don’t know what I did”. Somewhere in fifty years of playing an intrinsic concept eluded me. Both these old guys said they never studied scales or theory. I need a transplant of brain cells from each of them!
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  #2  
Old 04-04-2021, 07:02 PM
DukeX DukeX is offline
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I feel ya, Dave!
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  #3  
Old 04-24-2021, 10:01 AM
DaveKell DaveKell is offline
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Wow. I hoped someone could elaborate on feeling a solo to play as opposed to memorizing it!
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  #4  
Old 04-24-2021, 10:32 AM
rmp rmp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKell View Post
Wow. I hoped someone could elaborate on feeling a solo to play as opposed to memorizing it!
There is no memorizing improvisational playing. if you don't record it, it's gone for ever.

it's all really spur of the moment, and most of the time you're not even thinking about what you're playing. It really is just "feeling" it.

To get there, you need to know your scales, modes, and how to play over changes. honestly, it's very hard to explain to someone how to improvise.

You could look for some backing tracks in the styles you are interested in, and if you have like ZOOM handy MP3 record, try recording your progress.

you'll make mistakes, but the better handle you have on your scales, the less likely you will be reaching for notes too far out side the key.
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Old 04-24-2021, 10:38 AM
Mandobart Mandobart is offline
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Anyone that's mastered a physical skill - skiing, golfing, tennis, basketball, etc. will have a hard time breaking it down analytically to another person. It's a combination of talent, skill, knowledge, muscle memory, experience, feedback and repetition.

Very similar with artistic skills like painting, sculpture, sketching, photography, singing....

The ability to break these things down to a series of transferable excercises that impart the skill to someone else is itself a special skill that many don't possess - teaching.
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Old 04-24-2021, 10:57 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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There's a guy here in So Cal who makes a portion of his living composing commissioned "fake-improv" jazz solos for concertizing classical players. Supposed to give them added cred, I guess. He brought one of his clients, a famous flute player and chairman of the woodwind dept of a major conservatory, in to perform on a radio show I used to mix. The professor on flute and the guy on a Jumbo Taylor ripping through some Brazilian tune at about 200 bpm. It sounded ridiculous but it was impressive that the prof could both read all those flyspecks and find time to turn the pages.

In summation: major virtuosity, zero feel.
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Old 04-25-2021, 07:21 AM
rmp rmp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
In summation: major virtuosity, zero feel.
That kind of sums up jazz in general for me...

I've tried to love it, after 50 years of playing music I've come to the conclusion it just doesn't do anything for me.
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Old 04-25-2021, 06:40 PM
reeve21 reeve21 is offline
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That kind of sums up jazz in general for me...

I've tried to love it, after 50 years of playing music I've come to the conclusion it just doesn't do anything for me.
How ‘bout this?


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Old 04-25-2021, 07:43 PM
Denny B Denny B is offline
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"I've got no kick against modern jazz
Unless they try to play it too darn fast
And lose the beauty of the melody
Until they sound just like a symphony"

Chuck Berry
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Old 04-25-2021, 08:20 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKell View Post
Wow. I hoped someone could elaborate on feeling a solo to play as opposed to memorizing it!
I do a bit of both. When I first write a song and lay down the rhythm, I like to just sing along with it and then I learn to play what I just sang. I gets me on the page with a decent solo pretty fast. Although as I go, I work on the phrases adding double stops, bends, etc.
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Old 04-25-2021, 08:49 PM
Mandobart Mandobart is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
....In summation: major virtuosity, zero feel.
Not trying to get personal Brent, but I've been a classically trained musician for almost 50 years. I've relied primarily on aural traditional ear training for just 3 years less when I started bluegrass and jazz.

This old trope ("people who understand theory, are able to read notation, are accomplished sight readers, etc. just can't play with feeling") is nothing more than sour grapes by those who have chosen not to add these skills to their tool chest.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it's never superior to skill and knowledge.
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  #12  
Old 04-25-2021, 11:42 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Some people come up with solos based on what they hear in the music combined with their knowledge of their instrument. Over the years they have developed a vocabulary with their instrument and understand how to improvise. I have heard Tommy Emmanuel do this many times live. I have heard him make up solos on the spot playing Elvis Rockabilly stuff, and I've heard him improvise great solos live playing jazz with Frank Vignola.

Tommy Emmanuel is not a sight reader or somebody that can tell you much about modes, though I think he really knows more about that stuff than he lets on.

Other people with training in scales can came up with solos rapidly, too. Depending on the skill of the player, you might be hard pressed to decide who comes up with the better solo.

I know a very little bit about scales and modes, but I can usually come up with a solo fairly fast just based on what I hear in my head from music. (I would freely admit that I cannot come up with a good solo as fast as Tommy Emmanuel can.) Part of having this ability is having a good ear. A lot of having a good ear comes from experience and immersion, the vocabulary thing I mentioned in the first paragraph.

A good solo is not going to sound like someone playing a scale. In the end, the player has to have good musical sense.

- Glenn
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Old 04-26-2021, 01:27 PM
Deliberate1 Deliberate1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
Some people come up with solos based on what they hear in the music combined with their knowledge of their instrument.

- Glenn
This. My guitar journey is but a pup, at two years. But I came to it after 55 years of woodwinds work, classically trained clarinetist, and then jazz sax in high school and since. Regrettably, I got no theory in all that time. But I did develop a very, very good ear. And that allowed me to move into the lead tenor seat in an 18 piece big band, despite my inability to read changes.

I began ear training in college. I’d put on a Brubeck record and play along. And I’d listen to the brilliant Paul Desmond as he wove these magical melodies into the complex chord patterns Brubeck would spin. And I still do that.

In time, I moved onto various genres, including bossa, Klezmer and other flavors. And in time, as Glenn observes, I got to know my horns so well that, if I can “hear” the changes and anticipate their direction, I can craft a solo. I have tried to look at the chord changes on the chart, if for no other read to get the root. But I find it hard to improvise with my eyes open. Perhaps I am trying to “see” where the music is headed. And vision is a distraction.

My guitar teacher is strong on theory, and I am happy to be learning it. But, it may end up being more of an intellectual exercise than an improv tool. I do what I do how I do it. It is “thoughtless” playing. Automatic, intuitive, immediate. I have no doubt that the lack of formal theory training would explain what I am doing in the moment. I’m just not sure I want to know. Like, once an illusion is explained, it ain’t magic anymore.

Like what Charlie Parker said, “First you learn the instrument, then you learn the music, then you forget all that and just play.”

David
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Last edited by Kerbie; 04-27-2021 at 01:21 AM. Reason: Removed profanity
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  #14  
Old 04-27-2021, 01:10 AM
Andyrondack Andyrondack is offline
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A young Eric Clapton once said in an interview that his solos were made up of stock phrases and I think that's how most bluesy 'improvisation' comes about, players don't memorise complete solos as such but we do memorise a repertoire of phrases and microphrases of a few notes and link them together, you need a collection of two types of phrases those that resolve within the same chord and those that take you from one chord to another, so players really do need to memorise some locations of chord tones .I see it like 'join the dots' pictures , the more you recognise without having to think about it the more options you have but I think every one eventually develops a memory bank of such 'join the dots' phrases based on chord shapes and the variety comes from changing the rythmn of how the phrases are played.
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Old 04-27-2021, 09:01 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Originally Posted by Andyrondack View Post
A young Eric Clapton once said in an interview that his solos were made up of stock phrases and I think that's how most bluesy 'improvisation' comes about, players don't memorise complete solos as such but we do memorise a repertoire of phrases and microphrases of a few notes and link them together, you need a collection of two types of phrases those that resolve within the same chord and those that take you from one chord to another, so players really do need to memorise some locations of chord tones .I see it like 'join the dots' pictures , the more you recognise without having to think about it the more options you have but I think every one eventually develops a memory bank of such 'join the dots' phrases based on chord shapes and the variety comes from changing the rythmn of how the phrases are played.
Yes, I think this is what I was trying to get at with my use of the word "vocabulary." I agree, a lot of players string phrases together that fit the chord structure of the song.

- Glenn
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