The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 09-14-2020, 04:45 AM
Takzula Takzula is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 25
Default Something's wrong with my Seagull

Hi Everyone
Sorry for the Monty Python-esque title..

My 15yr-old Seagull S6 started to lose its tone about 6 months ago. I only ever played it live at noisy venues and the Baggs PU system didn't notice it, but just playing acoustically sounded terrible.

So. I've stripped it right down, tuners off, pickups all out and I've found a rattle/buzz sound when I knock on the top of the sound board between the bridge and the strap pin (lower bout..?). My problem is that I can't isolate and identify where it's coming from exactly.

I can't feel any loose struts inside the body at all, and I can't see any cracks in the body. Holding any one of the struts and tapping seems to cure it, but which one is it? Also putting pressure on the bridge from above and below seems to fix it, as does some pressure on the top of the body. I've tried running my thinnest feeler gauge along every strut, but they all seem well glued with no gaps.

Could it be a crack that I just can't see?

The only remedy I can think of that I can do is to slather wood glue along each strut where it meets the sound board. Then just let it all soak in like a filler. No clamps.

This guitar has been all around the block and then some. It was my #1 gigging guitar for years. I've now retired it, but I'd love to fix it up. I'm not paying to get it fixed.

Thanks for any tips.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-14-2020, 06:38 AM
12barBill 12barBill is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,334
Default

That sounds like there is a loose top brace.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-14-2020, 07:43 AM
samcatluth samcatluth is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 474
Default something is wrong with my Seagull....

If you slather glue on the supports it will dampen the sound. I don't think it's a crack. Something is loose somewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-14-2020, 08:06 AM
redir redir is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mountains of Virginia
Posts: 7,657
Default

Glue slather and no clamping will be pretty much useless. You need to identify the problem and fix it. A nice strong light source and mirrors help a lot when looking around inside a guitar.

My guess is that holding any one of the braces simply prevents the top from vibrating and triggering the buzz. Try humming into the sound hole raising or lowering the pitch of your voice till you find the resonant frequency of the guitar body. Does that vibration trigger the buzz?

If so then it's quite possible that you have truss rod rattle. Try tweaking the truss rod just a tiny bit and see if that takes the buzz away.

Do you notice any other structural features like for example excessive belly behind the bridge or the top sinking in around the sound hole?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-14-2020, 12:46 PM
Takzula Takzula is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 25
Default

Thanks everyone. I'll forget the glue plan.

I tightened truss rod after I took off the strings, but that wasn't the cause. However, I've had tremendous fun humming creepy resonant noises into the sound hole, sadly it sounded wonderful. Good-to-know test though, Thanks!
Finally,the only excessive belly is on the owner not the guitar.

I would swear by the sound it's a loose brace, but I just can't isolate it.

A couple of years ago I had to drill and ream out a hole where the strap button was for the pickup jack on the LR Baggs mic I installed. Perhaps that damaged something.

Hmm.. There's a voice in my head saying what would JJ Cale do with this guitar and a Dremmel..?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-14-2020, 01:17 PM
redir redir is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mountains of Virginia
Posts: 7,657
Default

This stuff can drive you crazy. Since you have it stripped down you have eliminated most of the obvious things. Tuners can even do this when they are loose and you would swear it was coming from the body too.

Did you check the back braces too?

Keep plugging away and you will find it. Again a good light source and mirrors inserted inside help. I have a simple light bulb at the end of a chord that is a small bulb that fits in the sound hole. I also insert a trifold mirror inside to see everything.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-14-2020, 03:08 PM
Takzula Takzula is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 25
Default

Thanks redir.
I tried applying hand pressure to all the back braces, but that did not cure anything.
I can grab pretty much any of the top ones between thumb and two fingers, tap, and the buzz goes.
I like that tip tip with the light bulb. Thanks. Ah! Brainwave: I'll see how I get on with one of my motorcycle's mirrors. They tilt nicely on those arms.
Alright. Seagull dentistry.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-14-2020, 05:25 PM
Ben M. Ben M. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Indiana
Posts: 357
Default

Try looking through the hole for the endpin jack while shining a flashlight along the braces.

It's awkward and might take some arm stretching but I think it's easier than fiddling around with a mirror.

Good luck!
__________________
“Good grief”
-Charlie “Chuck” Brown
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-15-2020, 04:24 AM
Takzula Takzula is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 25
Default

Thanks Ben, However, I took the jack and all the pickup system out when I stripped everything down. Just body and bones now.
I'm hoping to visually check the braces and top for any kind of damage or irregularity that my pudgy mitts couldn't feel.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-15-2020, 08:53 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,381
Default

If you listen carefully, you can often hear a cracked or loose top brace move when you press on - or near - it while pressing with moderate pressure on the outside of the top. Press with your thumb, listen, move your thumb a little, press, listen...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-17-2020, 09:29 AM
Takzula Takzula is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 25
Default

Oh boy. Charles. I did that and I heard a big distinct crack.
Now I can't replicate it!
I tried poking around with a mirror and light but couldn't see anything.
Man, I have no idea what to do...
I can fix any **** electric, but acoustic guitars are the domain of higher beings.
So what should I do?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-17-2020, 09:38 AM
hubcapsc's Avatar
hubcapsc hubcapsc is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: upstate SC
Posts: 2,688
Default

what would JJ Cale do with this guitar and a Dremmel..?

Likely install a couple of turnbuckles. You should probably
not try that as the first thing ...

-Mike
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-17-2020, 10:27 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takzula View Post
Oh boy. Charles. I did that and I heard a big distinct crack.
Where were you pressing when you heard the "crack"?


Quote:
So what should I do?
Continue investigating.

Are there any visible cracks in the top?

With a sufficiently strong light and suitable mirror, are there any visible cracks in the sides of any of the braces, particularly the taller ones? Are there any visible separations between the braces and the top - these will sometimes appear as black lines. Often, these occur towards the ends of braces. Ditto for the back braces.

Assuming an X brace on the top, look carefully at the intersection/joint of the two pieces that form the X. Look for cracks or splits in the braces immediately adjacent to the joint.

I play with nails on my right hand. I use the nails, particularly the thumb nail, to feel for brace cracks and separations. Doing so provides a tactile feedback that feeler gauges don't provide.

Since you found a rattle when you tapped the top between bridge and butt, look carefully at the finger braces in that area, particularly at the ends, looking for separation of the brace(s) from the top. Try applying an alternating light pressure with your thumb above the braces in that area while looking at them from the inside. Look for movement of the braces, particularly at their ends.

If none of that gets you closer to identifying the cause, I'd suggest taking it to an experienced repair person. Sometimes the sources of unwanted noises can be difficult to find while other times it can be very straightforward if one has experience. Once the source is identified, you then have the choice to effect the repair yourself or let the professional do it.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-17-2020, 11:16 AM
Takzula Takzula is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 25
Default

Thank you Charles, Great advice.
I took off my specs, put my ear to the back of the guitar toward the upper part and pressed, KERRACK!
I can not find anything wrong with the strut. I think its the top.
I'm not taking this guitar to any expert. It's now retired.
I picked up a 2nd hand Harley Benton J-200 copy a moth ago that sounds brilliant - with electrics . 100€
So the dear old Seagull will be given away to one of my son's friends.
Thanks again all guys who offered advice.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=