Bridge pins

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

As far as I can tell, if changing pins alters the sound it's due to the mass difference. If a guitar has a resonance that is 'on the edge' of interacting strongly with another, a small change in mass at the bridge can make an out sized difference, but otherwise you probably won't notice anything. That's why some folks hear a big change and others don't her any, and others again hear the opposite. No two guitars are the same, and it all depends on where they started out.

However if it is a mass change (and I do agree) why is it almost invariable that the more expensive pins sound better.
Sometimes basic plastic pins should sound the best.

[rickenboom]

In the end it all comes down to physics. The energy of the vibrating strings is transferred to the soundboard. The soundboard then starts to move and produces the sound.
Bridge and bridgepins are components in that energy transfer chain. (In fact, the ball end of the string needs to be tight to the soundboard, for best effect). When bridgepins are made from a softer material (plastic), they absorb energy differently, leaving a different amount of energy to go into the soundboard. Not exactly better or worse, just different.
So, in a long chain of components, along with material of the soundboard, size of the body, etc etc, bridge and bridge pin material might improve or might not improve the sound. Which always is subjective....
But it still is fun to experiment with your 6 string love affair!

[dgt178]

Originally Posted by rickenboom

As a Guitar improvement project I replaced the plastic bridgepins of my Maton with bone pins. Had to sand them down until they fitted, keep in mind it was Harley Benton one size fits nothing.
The whole idea was just to be busy doing guitar things, never thought that the sound would really improve.
Guess what?! It DOES work! I ended up with a much clearer and crispier sound.
Thought I ‘d share it with you : don’t hesitate, get some bone pins, it puts a smile on your face!
Next time I ‘ll share with you the hard work on a TUSQ compensated bridge.

......I'm not familiar with TUSQ bridges.......

[rickenboom]

TUSQ is artifical ivory, made by Graphtech

[ii Cybershot ii]

I know some people have done extensive testing, but it doesn't make sense to me that bridge pins would change the sound more than maybe 0.0001%.

Here's my logic: The sound of the instrument is generated from the length of string between the nut and the saddle. The sound of the instrument is not generated from the length of string between the saddle and the bridge pins (or the length of string between the tuners and the nut). To do a test, you can play an open string, and then touch these areas, and you will not notice a single difference in the tone (unless you press hard enough to effect the pitch). That's because the length of string in these areas is too short and does not vibrate strongly enough to generate a sound. In fact if the strings are buzzing past the nut it's a major flaw that has to be addressed. To me, this shows that bridge pins (and tuners) shouldn't have any effect on the sound.

[hyenik]

I made small test, differencies are noticable, but subtle.
https://soundcloud.com/hyenik/sets/bridge-pins

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

As far as I can tell, if changing pins alters the sound it's due to the mass difference. If a guitar has a resonance that is 'on the edge' of interacting strongly with another, a small change in mass at the bridge can make an out sized difference, but otherwise you probably won't notice anything. That's why some folks hear a big change and others don't her any, and others again hear the opposite. No two guitars are the same, and it all depends on where they started out.

Since Alan recently educated me on this topic, and helped me solve a wolf tone problem with a guitar by changing pins, I am in agreement with his explanation. I think the mass of the pins, applied to the bridge, is what we are hearing. I didn't realize, until I experimented, how little mass on the bridge or the head-stock can alter the tonal performance of the guitar. It's fascinating.

[Wade Hampton]

Personally, I'm agnostic on the subject of whether the material that bridge pins are made of have a discernible impact on the tone of the guitar - with the glaring exception of brass bridge pins, which most definitely do, but which are something I see as a blight rather than a benefit on most instruments.

Some people whose ears and opinions I respect tell me they can hear differences with other materials, but in my experience unless there's a significant difference in mass, the only other property that seems to have any real impact on tone - and a very minor impact, at that - is how hard the material is.

Here are some views expressed by some knowledgeable folks whose experiences are similar to mine. But I won't claim to know whether they loathe brass bridge pins as much as I do!

Rich wrote:

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

Personally I have NEVER had a pin change make the huge differences some people claim. Pins are way down on the list of things that affect sound, not even close to say strings, string gauge, pick thickness/material, or nut/saddle changes.

I agree, pins are WAY down the list. String alloys and, more importantly, right hand technique and pick materials have much more impact on the sound.

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

FWIW high end boutique pins (FWI, FMI) I have a couple sets, to my ears are no better than bone.........

I'm surprised to see you write that, Rich - fossil ivory bridge pins HAVE to sound ten times better than bone pins because they cost ten times as much!

And Al wrote:

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

As far as I can tell, if changing pins alters the sound it's due to the mass difference. If a guitar has a resonance that is 'on the edge' of interacting strongly with another, a small change in mass at the bridge can make an out sized difference, but otherwise you probably won't notice anything. That's why some folks hear a big change and others don't her any, and others again hear the opposite. No two guitars are the same, and it all depends on where they started out.

My feeling on the whole subject is that tonal changes ascribed to bridge pins range from very subtle to nonexistent, with the exception of brass pins, which tend to rob the guitars they're put on of some bass response and quite a bit of lower midrange.

Some guitars, overly tubby-sounding dreadnoughts foremost among them, can actually benefit from brass pins doing precisely that. But I would never put them on a guitar that I liked, because on a good-sounding guitar that would be like putting orthopedic shoes on a competitive track and field runner....

However, with the exception of the astonishingly expensive fossil ivory bridge pins, most aftermarket bridge pins are reasonably priced. As such, they don't cost much to experiment with. My only caution there is to avoid installing pins that require you to physically alter the bridge, either by slotting or by boring out the holes further, because you might find that you prefer the sound of the old pins. If you permanently alter anything, you can't go back to exactly what you had before.

Obviously, though, it's a matter of personal choice and preference. Have fun.


Wade Hampton Miller

[dgt178]

Originally Posted by rickenboom

TUSQ is artifical ivory, made by Graphtech

.....um.....were you responding to MY question??......I'm fully aware of TUSQ bridge pins, saddles and nuts......it's the TUSQ compensated bridge you mentioned that I've never heard of......

[Howard Klepper]

Two things about pins are certain:

White pins make the guitar sound brighter, while black pins make it sound darker.

As for how good the guitar sounds, it's in direct proportion to how expensive the pins are.

[Wade Hampton]

That pesky Northern California luthier Howard Klepper wrote:

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

Two things about pins are certain:

White pins make the guitar sound brighter, while black pins make it sound darker.

As for how good the guitar sounds, it's in direct proportion to how expensive the pins are.

That's one thing I love about Howard: there's NEVER a trace of sarcasm in anything he writes!


whm

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by dgt178

.....um.....were you responding to MY question??......I'm fully aware of TUSQ bridge pins, saddles and nuts......it's the TUSQ compensated bridge you mentioned that I've never heard of......

Rickenboom lives in The Netherlands. I'm guessing his first language is Dutch, not English, and I suspect he meant 'saddle'. I'm also guessing you realised that?

Maybe, on a forum conducted in English, we need to cut a little slack for the guys from non-English-speaking nations? Just a thought...

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[bufflehead]

If you're skeptical but still have an open mind, try a little experiment. Put your pinky on the bridge pin anchoring the first string, the high E, and then play any of the other strings individually, starting with the low E. What you'll feel, assuming you have normal sensitivity in that pinkie, is vibration. Those pins function as part of the soundboard. They vibrate even when the string they anchor isn't being played. Indeed, they vibrate more intensely than most other locations on the soundboard.

When you change the density of the pins, you've altered the soundboard, and you've done so at the most critical place where the board is transforming string vibration into noise.

What I hear most in changing pin materials--all my guitars have ebony pins--has less to do with the tone and more to do with overtone. Granted, not everyone hears this, but then again not everyone can detect the overtones in a given guitar, just as not everyone can hear the difference in sound when bridge pins are changed. And some very fine guitarists don't have that level of auditory sensitivity. Nothing wrong with that; we all have different talents.

One can talk ad infinitum about the various components of a soundboard: bridge, saddle, bracing, finish, torrefaction, pick guard and, of course, top wood material. But ultimately we should remember to consider the soundboard as a collective unit, the product of all those components working together. To insist that the bridge pins make absolutely no contribution to the synergy of the soundboard is, it seems to me, a bit naive.

[hat]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

As far as I can tell, if changing pins alters the sound it's due to the mass difference. If a guitar has a resonance that is 'on the edge' of interacting strongly with another, a small change in mass at the bridge can make an out sized difference, but otherwise you probably won't notice anything. That's why some folks hear a big change and others don't her any, and others again hear the opposite. No two guitars are the same, and it all depends on where they started out.

This makes a lot of sense - at least to me! So a question. If you have a guitar with plastic pins, could you approximate this effect by taping a little weight to the bridge just to see what effect it would have? Perhaps as a trial before spending big $$ on a set of Unicorn Horn pins?

[docwatsonfan]

Originally Posted by archerscreek

I bought a used D-18GE and hole #6 in the bridge is so big I have to add a wrap of plastic around the pin to get it to hold the ball end. Otherwise the ball end quickly slides up as soon as I let go and look towards the tuners to begin tensioning the string. I’m happy with the sound of the plastic but like the idea of sanding an overly fat pin down to get it to fit how it should. So I’ll check ‘em out. Thanks.

this addresses what I think is more important than pin material...... pin fit