How Many Mistakes Do You Find Acceptable?

[Fichtezc]

Hey guys,

I'm STILL working on recording 5 of my songs which are about the same subject on an EP which I can sell at gigs/put on bandcamp/etc.

When I say I'm still working I mean I've been working for about a month now and I don't have a single completed recording though I spend about 3 hours a day on it (and I'm a full time student-athlete!). How many mistakes in a track do you guys think are acceptable? I don't want to splice multiple takes together, I've tried before and I either end up not being able to play as rubato as I want since I need to use a metronome or the recordings sound subtly different because I sit slightly differently.

Ideally we all want perfection, I assume, but every now and then I still catch mistakes on players I really idolize. Should I be content with an "imperfect" recording or should I keep in this INFURIATING dead lock.

and a note, I don't think it's a matter of practice. I perform all of these at least once a week in front of audiences, usually more like twice. I also practice many hours a day on top of the recording.

[mr. beaumont]

Zero mistakes that SOUND like mistakes.

I have to ask myself often, "will anybody notice that but you?"

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Zero mistakes that SOUND like mistakes.

I have to ask myself often, "will anybody notice that but you?"

That's what I've been asking myself. I'd be willing to bet no one who isn't familiar with my pieces would notice anything. I'd be willing to bet a lot. For the people that are familiar with them, I think only the musicians would catch the mistakes. Sometimes at the end of a session I find myself saying, eh, only the musicians who know it will notice but the next day I scrap the recording and start again anyway.

[rick-slo]

Not getting the recorded sound you like is usually the biggest call for a complete retake.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Not getting the recorded sound you like is usually the biggest call for a complete retake.

I've actually been getting a sound I really like thankfully. Cause as you in particular know, that's usually what I'm here to complain about

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

the recordings sound subtly different because I sit slightly differently.

I'd think you could solve this. I get the problem, and it occasionally causes an issue for me, but usually not. I usually do multiple recordings pretty much without moving. Getting set up so you can trigger a re-record without leaving your chair helps - I use a remote control. When I do edits, I rarely patch together 2 major sections, what I usually do is work on the piece/recording until I have a complete take that I can mostly live with, and if needed, fix *short* sections, maybe as little as a single note. With crossfading, and careful placement, I can almost always find a way to patch in a few notes without anyone hearing it. I don't lose the over all feel or have to use a metronome because I'm using a complete take as the "base", and just fixing tiny spots here and there.

[Tele1111]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Zero mistakes that SOUND like mistakes.

I have to ask myself often, "will anybody notice that but you?"

What Jeff says is absolutely correct.

My goal when recording is always a perfect take. Like you, I don't like to splice takes. That can create more pressure though, and that pressure can actually create mistakes. If the mistakes occur in the same sections of the songs you are trying to record, the obvious solution is to work on those sections. If not, perhaps the decision and subsequent pressure from trying to get the perfect take is the issue. Only you can determine the answer.

I will say, whether for live performance or recording, the ability to mask a mistake, or to put the mistake to work for you is a learned ability. Everybody makes mistakes when playing. What you do to make it part of the musical flow is everything. Draw attention away from it, make it work somehow, work it into the tune, make it sound intentional. For yourself first and foremost, and when you learn how to do this, the listener benefits as well.

FWIW, I spent almost a year trying to record my last CD. Nothing seemed to please me. My issues had more to do with the recorded tone, but I do feel your pain and frustration.

Mark

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd think you could solve this. I get the problem, and it occasionally causes an issue for me, but usually not. I usually do multiple recordings pretty much without moving. Getting set up so you can trigger a re-record without leaving your chair helps - I use a remote control. When I do edits, I rarely patch together 2 major sections, what I usually do is work on the piece/recording until I have a complete take that I can mostly live with, and if needed, fix *short* sections, maybe as little as a single note. With crossfading, and careful placement, I can almost always find a way to patch in a few notes without anyone hearing it. I don't lose the over all feel or have to use a metronome because I'm using a complete take as the "base", and just fixing tiny spots here and there.

This is an interesting idea... I have tons of takes I can *mostly* live with. A flubbed trill here, a note not quite ringing out there, those are usually my problems. When you go to fix the section, do you use a piece of a recording you did in the same "sitting" or do you go back and rerecord it?

Your last album sounds perfect to me, I don't think I've caught a mistake in it yet through all the times I've listened to it. I take it you fixed sections of that. What about your videos? I've watched the Reverie video a few times, was that a whole recording or did you fix pieces? You're an experienced enough player I imagine you can mask mistakes plus I don't know any other version of the piece.

This could be useful to me if I can learn how to do it... Because I really do scrap entire 5 minute takes for a flubbed trill.

Originally Posted by Tele1111

What Jeff says is absolutely correct.

My goal when recording is always a perfect take. Like you, I don't like to splice takes. That can create more pressure though, and that pressure can actually create mistakes. If the mistakes occur in the same sections of the songs you are trying to record, the obvious solution is to work on those sections. If not, perhaps the decision and subsequent pressure from trying to get the perfect take is the issue. Only you can determine the answer.

I will say, whether for live performance or recording, the ability to mask a mistake, or to put the mistake to work for you is a learned ability. Everybody makes mistakes when playing. What you do to make it part of the musical flow is everything. Draw attention away from it, make it work somehow, work it into the tune, make it sound intentional. For yourself first and foremost, and when you learn how to do this, the listener benefits as well.

FWIW, I spent almost a year trying to record my last CD. Nothing seemed to please me. My issues had more to do with the recorded tone, but I do feel your pain and frustration.

Mark

Agreed on the pressure. Sometimes I'll notice I'm getting stressed and messing up the easiest things so I'll go take a walk around the block before trying again. While I'm not an incredibly proficient or experienced player, I do feel I have the ability to mask mistakes and perform extemporaneously when I'm playing live. Maybe that's just because I don't have recordings of the live shows though When I'm recording, however, I want an "accurate" representation of the piece, especially since I have it all notated and published... Can't be playing my own pieces "incorrectly."

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one frustrated. I've had many, many issues with recorded tone but I've finally managed to find something I really like at least. I just can't play my own pieces!

[rick-slo]

Unintended mistakes are creativity on the fly - an especially useful thought if you repeat them later in the tune.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Unintended mistake is creativity on the fly - an especially useful thought if you repeat it later in the tune.

Usually, before I've finalized a piece I'll take it to an open mic and just start playing. Some of my best writing has come from unintended mistakes. I'm a big believer in that

I'm not a big believer in playing notated and finalized music incorrectly however.UNLESS it turns out to be really interesting, which missed trills aren't.

I do completely agree with you though. Creativity on the fly is a wonderufl thing.

[JoeCharter]

If a guitar player is selling me his music, I would expect it to be professionally recorded with zero "real" mistakes. Solid rhythm, no clinching, etc.

If it's a live performance or a YouTube video, a couple of minor mistakes would be acceptable.

[SteveA]

None......it's why I only use Nashville & L.A.'s finest session players.......

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by SteveA

None......it's why I only use Nashville & L.A.'s finest session players.......

I guess the goal for me is to get to that level then haha... 4 hours of legitimate practice a day on top of the attempted recording doesn't seem to be helping though.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

This is an interesting idea... I have tons of takes I can *mostly* live with. A flubbed trill here, a note not quite ringing out there, those are usually my problems. When you go to fix the section, do you use a piece of a recording you did in the same "sitting" or do you go back and rerecord it?

I almost always record multiple takes without moving until I'm pretty sure I've got one that's good. You never know until you listen back, but in general, a good session is one where I got multiple takes I think I could accept with a few small tweaks. If there's a rough spot, odds are high if I do maybe 5 takes that in one of them, I played the part in question right, and can use that as patch material. Sometimes that isn't true, and that means go back and practice more and try the whole thing again. In theory, I could practice just that one part - maybe a few notes - and then record that as a patch later, but I don't think I've ever done that. People do this sort of thing, tho, especially on non-solo guitar. On a pop or rock session, you might go back days later just to punch in a few notes. Harder to do that with solo fingerstyle, I think, without it being heard.

Your last album sounds perfect to me, I don't think I've caught a mistake in it yet through all the times I've listened to it. I take it you fixed sections of that.

There are edits, for sure. Not a lot. I've heard people say that on classical recordings there might be hundreds of edits in a piece, I usually have 2 or 3 small spots. If it's a lot more than that, it starts getting messy, and I feel like I'm patching together Frankenstein :-). Sometimes I'll go thru the process of really fixing up a take that has lots of problems, maybe a few dozen patches, and then realize it's been more of an exercise in understanding how I want it to sound, focus on the choices I made in the edits, and go back and re-record after practicing so I can do it without all those edits.

What about your videos? I've watched the Reverie video a few times, was that a whole recording or did you fix pieces?.

It's hard to edit videos, you can do a little, and in theory with multiple cameras, you can do some stuff, but I haven't had to do that yet. Reverie is a complete take, no edits. Funny, after I posted that, my wife came in and ask if I'd really wanted to let that out - she thought I could do better, and yeah, I hear 2 specific spots I wish I would have played better and/or fixed. I'd fix them on an audio recording, but they're just notes I could have played a little cleaner, so for a live video, I'll just live with it. Hopefully, if I don't tell anyone where they are, no one will notice!

Video adds its own complications. I recorded Reverie the evening before that take and music was fine, but something was messed up with my lighting or cameras, and it just looked awful, so I reshot it. After doing videos, audio recording seems so easy :-)

One interesting issue on the thing about anyone noticing: I think you have to strike a bit of balance. Yes, maybe no one will notice but you, but still, *you* will know, so it kind of depends on why you're recording. You want to feel good about it, I assume. On one hand, you may be hyper-critical while you're recording, and if you came back tomorrow, or next week, you might hear it differently and not even notice. Or you might cringe every time you hear it, so you sort of have to make that call.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I almost always record multiple takes without moving until I'm pretty sure I've got one that's good. You never know until you listen back, but in general, a good session is one where I got multiple takes I think I could accept with a few small tweaks. If there's a rough spot, odds are high if I do maybe 5 takes that in one of them, I played the part in question right, and can use that as patch material. Sometimes that isn't true, and that means go back and practice more and try the whole thing again. In theory, I could practice just that one part - maybe a few notes - and then record that as a patch later, but I don't think I've ever done that. People do this sort of thing, tho, especially on non-solo guitar. On a pop or rock session, you might go back days later just to punch in a few notes. Harder to do that with solo fingerstyle, I think, without it being heard.


There are edits, for sure. Not a lot. I've heard people say that on classical recordings there might be hundreds of edits in a piece, I usually have 2 or 3 small spots. If it's a lot more than that, it starts getting messy, and I feel like I'm patching together Frankenstein :-). Sometimes I'll go thru the process of really fixing up a take that has lots of problems, maybe a few dozen patches, and then realize it's been more of an exercise in understanding how I want it to sound, focus on the choices I made in the edits, and go back and re-record after practicing so I can do it without all those edits.



It's hard to edit videos, you can do a little, and in theory with multiple cameras, you can do some stuff, but I haven't had to do that yet. Reverie is a complete take, no edits. Funny, after I posted that, my wife came in and ask if I'd really wanted to let that out - she thought I could do better, and yeah, I hear 2 specific spots I wish I would have played better and/or fixed. I'd fix them on an audio recording, but they're just notes I could have played a little cleaner, so for a live video, I'll just live with it. Hopefully, if I don't tell anyone where they are, no one will notice!

Video adds its own complications. I recorded Reverie the evening before that take and music was fine, but something was messed up with my lighting or cameras, and it just looked awful, so I reshot it. After doing videos, audio recording seems so easy :-)

One interesting issue on the thing about anyone noticing: I think you have to strike a bit of balance. Yes, maybe no one will notice but you, but still, *you* will know, so it kind of depends on why you're recording. You want to feel good about it, I assume. On one hand, you may be hyper-critical while you're recording, and if you came back tomorrow, or next week, you might hear it differently and not even notice. Or you might cringe every time you hear it, so you sort of have to make that call.

I really appreciate the time you took to write that, thank you. I think I'll start fresh tomorrow and try to do 4 or 5 takes at a time and then work on patching.

I'm glad my girlfriend doesn't have as keen of an ear as your wife! She's always like "I think it sounds okay....are you sure you want to record it ANOTHER time??" There's one part which I THINK I notice, but, like you said if it's not brought up then for all I know you intended it to be that way! I agree with you about video though.... total pain. Lighting is a nightmare.

As for the balance, you're right. I do need to find one. I listen to recordings from 6+ months ago (or even 3 or 4 years ago) that I had put in my "trash" bin (I never ACTUALLY throw anything away) and wonder what I thought was so wrong with it. At the same time though, I have videos on YouTube that I shudder every time I watch. I think I'm just having nightmares about finally finishing the CD, spending the money to get it produced and then hearing mistakes that I wish I had spent (more) time fixing.

Things to worry about in the morning. And after class. And after practice. And after I practice. Whew.
Thanks, all.