sm81 vs sm57 ...how do they compare??

[Ty Ford]

Bob,

I take issue with your use of the disparaging characterization that I was being "snarkey."

If you don't like what I said, fine, but making personal attacks is just plain wrong. I doubt if we were standing to to toe that you'd go there.

Seriously,

Ty Ford

[flagstaffcharli]

Hi Ty,

I think my point about the Beatles recording of this is simply that we can learn from their attitude of fearless creating. American rock bands were already getting used to using the 8-track machines. EMI hadn't upgraded from four track yet. George Martin never said, "No Paul, you can't do this." Nobody at EMI said, "We're sorry but the amount of noise on this record is unprofessional and unacceptable." George Martin didn't worry his reputation would be harmed by the hiss on the records. An 8 track machine would have been more appropriate to the task at hand, but the Beatles didn't wait for EMI to supply one. They had work to do and they weren't going to be delayed.

Why? Probably in part because they understood very clearly that pristine audio quality wasn't the most important component of a record. Sgt. Pepper is a fabulous lesson to anyone and everyone making music. It isn't about what gear or experience or other extravagances were on hand at Abbey Road, it was and still is about an attitude.

My point wasn't a knee jerk reaction - and in fact I have recorded into the cheapest gear and in some pro studios where old Neumann tube mics and an old RCA ribbon were dropped in front of me. Cool experiences, though that doesn't make me some expert on the performance of that gear.

Ty, I read your comments on gear with interest and respect. I'm not trying to knock you at all. I just think you're missing something important here. You're very good at this and I have listened to your work. I'm always interested in what you and a few others here have to say about gear and recording techniques.

My pimary point is this: If someone is upgrading to a $350 mic from an SM57 and they say that's "expensive", it can be intimidating to hear that what they really need is a $1500 mic. It's discouraging to hear that, especially when the SM81 is a fine microphone for the purpose they have in mind. We shouldn't discourage anyone - even unintentionally - from doing this.

Use what you can get your hands on and then fearlessly create your music.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by flagstaffcharli

Hi Ty,
My pimary point is this: If someone is upgrading to a $350 mic from an SM57 and they say that's "expensive", it can be intimidating to hear that what they really need is a $1500 mic. It's discouraging to hear that, especially when the SM81 is a fine microphone for the purpose they have in mind. We shouldn't discourage anyone - even unintentionally - from doing this.
Use what you can get your hands on and then fearlessly create your music.

FSC,

Thanks for your kind words. I think it's a good idea to let people know where the sky is and let them decide. There was no price mentioned in the OP's first post, only the SM81 and clearly, one can do better these days.

I did, in fact, counter with the EV 635a and MXL MCA SP-1, which in my opinion, and having used BOTH work quite nicely for the price.

Having said that, I wish people would stop all the nay saying when better (and sometimes more expensive) gear is mentioned. Especially when they have never heard what it can do. Again, aim low and that's probably just above where you'll end up.

HNY,

Ty Ford

[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

This is exactly the very first upgrade I did in my recording evolution. By far the most significant difference between these two mics is the sensitivity. The SM81 has much greater sensitivity.

SM81: Sensitivity (at 1,000 Hz)
Open Circuit Voltage: -45 dBV/Pascal (5.6 mV) (1 Pa = 94 dB SPL)

SM57: Sensitivity (at 1,000 Hz)
Open Circuit Voltage: -56 dBV/Pascal (1.6 mV) (1 Pa = 94 dB SPL)

This difference means that you have to turn your preamp up a _lot_ to match the SM57 to the SM81.

Outside of this there are differences in frequency response. The SM57 is tailored for PA use, so it has a presence peak of about 6 dB at 6 khz. The SM81 has (if the factory curve can be trusted) a very flat response. The response of the SM81 also extends to 20 khz, while the SM57 has a high frequency rolloff starting around 12 khz.

The SM81 low frequency response is also extended compared to the SM57. The 57 is expected to be used very close to the source, so the response is tailored to reduce proximity effect. This was the second most obvious difference to me when I did careful comparisons and both mics were placed about 18" from the guitar. The SM57 sounds a bit bass light in this arrangement.

Here are the two spec sheets with frequency response and polar pattern diagrams:

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/publ..._specsheet.pdf

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/publ..._specsheet.pdf

Fran

Excellent. I've been using a Neuman KMS 105 for vocals and Shure SM-81 for guitar for years in live venues. SM-81 works for me........

[Bob1131]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Bob,

I take issue with your use of the disparaging characterization that I was being "snarkey."

If you don't like what I said, fine, but making personal attacks is just plain wrong. I doubt if we were standing to to toe that you'd go there.

Seriously,

Ty Ford

If you did not intend your post as sarcasm (snarky), then I apologize. Your post certainly read as sarcastic and condescending to me. Since you addressed your post to me, as "Dear Bob," I could only expect that everything in that post was directed at me.

I have no objection to people recommending, buying or using high end gear, and I did not say anything about that, yet in your response you went off on a rant about how people reject or otherwise knock high end gear recommendations. You assumed the point of my post was to diss high end gear when, in fact, my intention was to humorously remind everyone that the OP simply wanted to know what improvement he could expect going from a SM57 to a SM81. He did indicate that a SM81 was "quite expensive" for him, and I did not read in his post a request for recommendations for the best alternative.

I understand that you are an expert and professional recording engineer, and I value your recommendations and comments (I have stated this many times in the past). However, in this thread, I don't think your recommendation served the needs of the OP...yes, that is just my opinion, so I will leave it there. If anyone wants to know about high end mics, there are plenty of threads available on that topic.

To state or otherwise suggest that anyone is "aiming low" because they do not buy or cannot afford high end equipment is simply inaccurate and very insensitive. There are many here, myself included, who play and record as a hobby but strive for the best sound we can achieve and afford. That doesn't mean we are aiming low and getting what we aim for.

And just for the record, yes, I would tell this to you in person. If you would like, I'll pm my address to you and you are welcome to come here and test that!

[moon]

The ADK A6 is a nice acoustic guitar mic, better and cheaper ($250) than the SM81 IMO. Sample clip from dreamguitars (spaced pair). In that price range, the Oktava Mk012 is also a good buy.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

Excellent. I've been using a Neuman KMS 105 for vocals )

Great vocal mic!

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Bob1131

If you did not intend your post as sarcasm (snarky), then I apologize.

Bob,

Apology accepted.

Regards,

Ty

[oneartist]

James Taylor uses a Shure KSM9 for his one man show. I've never read a bad review on this mic. It's at $700 street, but often there are 15% to 20% off one item sales. I copy this sale price and send it to: [email protected] and they always beat the price. You should be able to get it for about $550 to $575. I got a $330 Aura Spectrum this way for $272 with no tax and no shipping.

[alohachris]

Aloha,

I can empathize w/ Ty's weariness of the "record & amplify on the cheap" ethic that's so prevalent among guitar players at this site. And it's only IS a knee-jerk reaction in hard times born of a lack of experience w/ better signal chains - and the differences they can make in our recordings at home.

Sometimes, it's easy to forget that these discussions are among acoustic guitar players rather than recording freaks as over at Gearslutz. They never talk about any piece of high-end gear as being too pricey over there; only the function, quality, application, workability in different signal chains & what something like a high-end mic can do for you.

Even if the OP feels that an SM-81 is "quite expensive," I feel that it's important to inform posters here about what's out there - in all price ranges. If you don't know what's out there, or where you're heading with your recordings, you probably won't get there, or will waste money on parts of a signal chain that won't help you.

Mentioning Schoeps or Gefell mic's is a great way to introduce "what if" into the considerations of players on this home recording path. If I had not read about the signal chain choices & techniques of our friends here: Ty, Doug, Sdelsoray, Fran, Matt, Rick-Slo, Rick Shepherd, Kev Wind, Noel, Rick Turner etc. etc. (you know who you are) as I was getting into DAW recording, then I would not have known about - and acquired - the tools I need to make a compatible recording chain & better recordings faster. And I don't have the time to waste anymore.

So I think that Ty has done a favor to the OP, whether acknowledged here or not as I see it.

We often marvel at Doug Young's pristine recordings & processes that he shares so freely with us here (Mahalo Doug). As easy as he makes it sound, he records in his great studio he built with the high-end professional gear & software that his knowledge & great playing have earned over a long time.

I know that you can get OK recordings from an H4N & a couple of great mic's (if your room is treated). But nothing like the quality that Doug has shared here. Why? Because you simply can't get close to it without better tools.

Great acoustic recordings ALL begin with great mic's, friends. No way around that!

BTW, I've owned Zoom's twice & could never get around the self-noise issues of their mic's & difficulty of using or seeing the controls (huge hands & aging eyes here). My ears totally rejected them for even passable recordings. Good tools though, but not for controlled recordings, IMO. I was able to get decent live recordings out of a Sony D-50. Again, a better tool.

So if you want to record with an SM-57 dynamic, then knock yourself out. Good place to start. An SM-81 or any condenser mic is much more preferrable. But a great pair (or more) of matched Schoeps CMC641($1900 a piece) or Gefell M295 ($1500 a piece) or other higher-end SDC's are capable of great acoustic recordings, along with the treatment, signal chain & skill set you need to go with them.

I mean, Hey, Doug Young's Brauner VM-1's list new for $5800 a piece (he paid much less for used & they weren't the same exact model). The R-88 ribbon mic in the middle lists for over $1700 new. No one is telling him here that his mic's or recommendations are too expensive, right?

It's all about the sound. Is it worth the money? It certainly is to recording studio's who have hundreds of thousand$ of mic's in their lockers & also to those whose recordings you revere here. And to me as well. And I'm not there yet on consistency (my fault, not my great gear's). But I use great mic's that make a huge difference over what I used in the past.

So let's applaud Ty's sharing of information here. His information is ALWAYS insightful & VERY appropriate in any mic discussion we may have here.

alohachris

PS: To the OP, I agree with Noel, the under $500 condenser mic's I'd recommend over an SM-81 are the ADK A6 LDC ($249) & the Oktava MK-012 SDC ($275). Look for used pairs. -alohachris-

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

This is exactly the very first upgrade I did in my recording evolution. By far the most significant difference between these two mics is the sensitivity. The SM81 has much greater sensitivity.

SM81: Sensitivity (at 1,000 Hz)
Open Circuit Voltage: -45 dBV/Pascal (5.6 mV) (1 Pa = 94 dB SPL)

SM57: Sensitivity (at 1,000 Hz)
Open Circuit Voltage: -56 dBV/Pascal (1.6 mV) (1 Pa = 94 dB SPL)

This difference means that you have to turn your preamp up a _lot_ to match the SM57 to the SM81.

Outside of this there are differences in frequency response. The SM57 is tailored for PA use, so it has a presence peak of about 6 dB at 6 khz. The SM81 has (if the factory curve can be trusted) a very flat response. The response of the SM81 also extends to 20 khz, while the SM57 has a high frequency rolloff starting around 12 khz.

The SM81 low frequency response is also extended compared to the SM57. The 57 is expected to be used very close to the source, so the response is tailored to reduce proximity effect. This was the second most obvious difference to me when I did careful comparisons and both mics were placed about 18" from the guitar. The SM57 sounds a bit bass light in this arrangement.

Here are the two spec sheets with frequency response and polar pattern diagrams:

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/publ..._specsheet.pdf

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/publ..._specsheet.pdf

Fran

Fran is correct but for everyone's information: 1 of the ways microphone & speaker manufacturers make the response curves on their equipment look flatter is to run the "pen" writing the graph at a faster rate. In other words: take response figures with a grain of salt.

[Ty Ford]

FTR, I don't make snarky comments, except in private, because it's a poor use of energy. When I suggested the EV 635a and MXL MCA SP-1 as mics to consider I was dead serious.

As regards Chris' hat tip to GearSLutz, yes, they do go on about the recording process and seem to be willing to spend more on those toys. OTOH, over here, I'm frequently amazed by how many guitars people have or how expensive they are. So, pick your vice!

Finally, if you have an SM58, but don't like it because it pops, try an insert from popperblocker. Check it out: https://sites.google.com/site/popperblocker/

While I'm on the subject of SM58s, there's a simple mod that can improve the sound of an SM58. Here's a link you can either play by clicking on the left or download by clicking on the right. Listen to how the "special cord" with a $1 modification smoothes out the response.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[donh]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Fran is correct but for everyone's information: 1 of the ways microphone & speaker manufacturers make the response curves on their equipment look flatter is to run the "pen" writing the graph at a faster rate. In other words: take response figures with a grain of salt.

this is also known as "The Marketing Smoothing Curve" !!