Very good explanation of tuning and temperament

[robj144]

This might need to be moved somewhere else, but I'm putting here to begin since I see a lot of these threads in this subforum.

But, this is an excellent video explaining tuning and temperament (acoustic at end too):

[JimmerO]

I went to see Leo Kotke a couple years ago at Infinity Hall in Norfolk Connecticut. We had seats 2 rows from the stage. At one point Leo was tuning to an open tuning using a Snark. He looked up and said "These things are handy but they're just another opinion."

I use a Snark and fine tune by ear.

Good video. I always enjoy his witty presentations. Thanks for posting.

[Manbelton]

Thanks for posting - that sent me down an hour long Paul Davids YouTube rabbit hole! That guy is great.

[LadysSolo]

Very interesting - Thanks!

[charles Tauber]

He states the issue of temperament well.

It would have been nice if he had been a bit more specific about what to do about the issue, beyond simply not tuning "perfectly" to one's tuner. There is a lot to be said about sweetened tunings and methods of tuning the guitar, one string to another.

[rick-slo]

Why minor keys sound more in tune. The most appropriate tuning compromises vary with the notes and chords being played, so retuning from tune to
tune may be needed, especially when recording.

[MC5C]

What I have never grasped about sweetened tunings is - if you sweeten the tuning so a G chord is perfectly in tune (fix the B's, or the third, is what I understand is done) aren't the C and D chords now quite out of tune?

Brian

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by MC5C

What I have never grasped about sweetened tunings is - if you sweeten the tuning so a G chord is perfectly in tune (fix the B's, or the third, is what I understand is done) aren't the C and D chords now quite out of tune?

Brian

Yup. You are just chasing the out-of-tune-ness around. That's the point of equal temperament: all notes, all keys are equally in tune and out of tune. It is a specific compromise.

If you want to play in the key of G major, you can sweeten the relevant notes to the key of G major so that those notes in G major sound better - usually closer to Just tuning, and away from equal temperament. If you switch keys to, say E major, half-way through the piece in G major, the portion of the piece in E major is going to sound way worse than if you just left the whole thing tuned "perfectly" to equal temperament rather than sweetened for G major. That is the point of equal temperament: to provide one functional compromise that is equally good - and bad - in all situations.

If you are not going to switch to E major in the middle of your piece in G major, it might well make sense to sweeten your tuning for G major. How to best sweeten tuning is situational.

[nickv6]

Originally Posted by MC5C

What I have never grasped about sweetened tunings is - if you sweeten the tuning so a G chord is perfectly in tune (fix the B's, or the third, is what I understand is done) aren't the C and D chords now quite out of tune?

Brian

Absolutely. There's no way round it. Sweetening a tuning in one key ruins other keys.
That's why equal temperament is the best compromise. In theory it spreads the "unsweetenedness" around equally so that all keys sound OK.
There is no way round it.

Nick

[Stomp]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

............How to best sweeten tuning is situational.

Exactly, and Equal temperament is not as all-pervasive as some might think.
In every town on the planet there are multiple temperaments in constant use, often in combination on the same stage .

To be aware of them can be an advantage, even if you're a player with no interest or knowledge of tuning specifics outside of Equal temperament.

When you sweeten a tuning, the gains in consonance can often outweigh the losses.
In Equal temperament, there are always some intervals that, depending on the situation, certainly benefit from an adjustment.

Nobody would dream of defining the "correct" speed or depth of a chorus effect or one delay time to suit all occasions.
So it is with tuning (IMHO of course ).

[godfreydaniel]

Originally Posted by Stomp

Exactly, and Equal temperament is not as all-pervasive as some might think.
In every town on the planet there are multiple temperaments in constant use, often in combination on the same stage .

I like that!

[JimmerO]

Originally Posted by Stomp

Exactly, and Equal temperament is not as all-pervasive as some might think.
In every town on the planet there are multiple temperaments in constant use, often in combination on the same stage .

To be aware of them can be an advantage, even if you're a player with no interest or knowledge of tuning specifics outside of Equal temperament.

When you sweeten a tuning, the gains in consonance can often outweigh the losses.
In Equal temperament, there are always some intervals that, depending on the situation, certainly benefit from an adjustment.

Nobody would dream of defining the "correct" speed or depth of a chorus effect or one delay time to suit all occasions.
So it is with tuning (IMHO of course ).

Yep and this all came about when keyboard instruments took off. No easy way to temper or sweeten on the fly.

But of course this is where the fret-less instruments like the violin or cello have an advantage. Ever listen to a good string quartet or an acappella group? They can simply be in tune from one interval to the next if they choose.

[nickv6]

Originally Posted by JimmerO

Yep and this all came about when keyboard instruments took off. No easy way to temper or sweeten on the fly.

But of course this is where the fret-less instruments like the violin or cello have an advantage. Ever listen to a good string quartet or an acappella group? They can simply be in tune from one interval to the next if they choose.

I agree, it's such a sweet sound when there's no fret to accommodate.
You'd think that electronic keyboards would have a button you could press for the sweetest tuning in the particular key your playing in....or perhaps they do, do they, anyone know????
Nick

[JimmerO]

Originally Posted by nickv6

I agree, it's such a sweet sound when there's no fret to accommodate.
You'd think that electronic keyboards would have a button you could press for the sweetest tuning in the particular key your playing in....or perhaps they do, do they, anyone know????
Nick

Hey that's an interesting thought. I've never heard of a keyboard that does that but why not. You could have several programmings in the thing and an electronic keyboard really could tune on the fly.

If it hasn't been invented yet...well it's time.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by JimmerO

Hey that's an interesting thought. I've never heard of a keyboard that does that but why not. You could have several programmings in the thing and an electronic keyboard really could tune on the fly.

If it hasn't been invented yet...well it's time.

Plugins such as Melodyne can do this... read at the end:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...ony-melodyne-4