Zoom H4n?

[moominboy]

Thanks for all the input on my various questions regarding home recording options over the past few days everyone. It's been a great help.

I have a couple more....

The H4n has been recommended by a few people and I am attracted to it's portability and apparent ease of use (and the price seems a bit lower since the H6 release).

Can anyone tell me how effective it is as an acoustic recorder. I would want to lay tracks down on it, then upload to Reaper or some other software and put some completed tracks together that way. What's the quality like? Is it up there with the Tascam products (the Portastudio DP 008EX for example)?

As I said, the Zoom products seem very popular. I have had a good look at the Scarlett 2i2 also, but am put off by the fact that I have to have my laptop set up whenever I want to record. I want something a little more casual, as I am far from a pro but want to start putting some of my songs down and play around a bit with mastering.

This is why I'm narrowing my search down to the Tascam Portastudios (DP 004/006/008EX) and the Zoom H4n. I really want the flexibility of recording anywhere at anytime. What would you do and why? I understand I am not going to get cutting edge quality, but I do want something decent, hard wearing and not too fiddly.

Or, because my recording needs are so simple and few, should I go for the H2n and save a bit of cash? As I said, I just want to record decent quality tracks and transfer them to my laptop.

Thanks again for any advice!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by moominboy

...I'm narrowing my search down to the Tascam Portastudios (DP 004/006/008EX) and the Zoom H4n. I really want the flexibility of recording anywhere at anytime. What would you do and why? I understand I am not going to get cutting edge quality, but I do want something decent, hard wearing and not too fiddly.

Or, because my recording needs are so simple and few, should I go for the H2n and save a bit of cash? As I said, I just want to record decent quality tracks and transfer them to my laptop.

Thanks again for any advice!

Hi moominboy...

The advantage of the Zoom H4n over the H2n are several. It is multi-track capable, and it has XLR inputs which can supply full 48v phantom to external mics (or 24v, or 12v if I'm recalling properly).

The H2n is one of the best point-n-shoot models available and has 5 mic patterns available at the twist of a dial.

Both can mount on a camera tripod which I find handy for recording remotely, because it's easier to pack in a tripod than a mic stand.

I own both and find the quality comparable in actual use. The H2n is the size of an electric shaver (and kind of that shape too). If you don't need multi-track built in, or XLR inputs, then the H2n is a wonderful unit.

In fact if your needs are really simple, and multi-track is unnecessary, Zoom makes an H1 model which is even smaller, and it's quality is really surprising. I have a student with one, and it seems to be as good quality or better than the original Zoom H2. At $100 it's a real bargain.

I see guys using them as remote recorders when shooting video. One guy had his 'clipped' into the light holder atop his video camera.

The Zooms can also act as USB mics when plugged into a computer.

The advantage of the Tascam table-top models is they are very 'familiar' feeling to those who started recording with analog units and physical mixers.

My son has a Tascam table top model which does a great job of recording, but he doesn't take it anywhere - too much to pack-n-drag around with him. I have both the Zoom H2n and H4n and they go anywhere anytime (and the H2n is usually in my gear bag).

[Doug Young]

Quality is highly subjective. All these little recorders basically amount to mics (or mic inputs), preamps, and A/D converters. Then they store the digital signal. So when you compare them at a "quality" level rather than a feature level, you're basically comparing those elements. Assuming the company doesn't mess up, pretty much any preamp/converter combo in the same basic price point is going to be pretty similar. There's a good chance they even use the same chips. The biggest weakness of all these recorders seems to be the mics. They probably cost pennies :-), so that's not too surprising. They can be noisy, and may be audibly worse than mics that cost a lot more. That said, just listen to all the recordings that have been posted using the H1, H2, H4, Tascam, etc. Most of them sound excellent, and where they don't, I'd say it has more to do with room acoustics than the recorders. If you compare the built-in mics to much better mics, you will probably hear a difference, but without a reference, you probably won't notice a thing. The nice thing about the H4 (and H6) is that you can plug in external mics, so an "upgrade" is just a matter of whatever mics you want to add, if you get to a point where that makes sense. Some people will quibble about the quality of the converters and preamps, even with external mics, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to hear a clear, consistent difference that everyone would agree on between a Zoom H4 with external mics and a much more expensive setup with the same mics in the same room, etc. Even with the built-in mics, it's close enough that unless you're making professional recordings, and both you and your listeners have picky and trained ears, the difference be undetectable. The main reasons I'd go for something more elaborate would be if money was no object and you're willing to spend 10-20x (or more) the money for a 1% difference, or if you need the features of more complex recording interfaces (lots of inputs, monitoring, ADAT interfaces, inserts, etc, etc). There are portable recorders that are higher quality - check out Sound Devices, for example. But they're not as simple to use, and they cost.

By the way, the H6 is a bit bigger, heavier, and costs a little more, but is far more flexible, and less "fiddly", with volume controls clearly and easily accessible, a nice color screen, and both loads and formats discs in seconds instead of minutes. That alone makes it worth the extra money to me, with the ability to have up to 6 external mics being icing on the cake.

[Rudy4]

Have you ruled out a Zoom R8? Seems like the perfect machine for you, all you need is a set of headphones to record and/or overdub. If you're unfamiliar I have a bit of info about the R series machines on my home recording page:

http://www.bluestemstrings.com/pageRecording1.html

[moominboy]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Have you ruled out a Zoom R8? Seems like the perfect machine for you, all you need is a set of headphones to record and/or overdub. If you're unfamiliar I have a bit of info about the R series machines on my home recording page:

http://www.bluestemstrings.com/pageRecording1.html

Thats looks like a good option also, thanks Rudy.

How does build quality/ease of the R8 compare to the Tascam DP 008EX?
I've read that the Tascams are a bit fiddly and not so user friendly.

i do like the look of the R8.

[BoneDigger]

I have a Zoom H4N that I use as my primary recorder. I have it set up with external mics and I'm quite happy with the results. It's fairly easy to use and I upload the files to Reaper for production.

I also own a Tascam DR05 that I use for recording my daughter's violin lessons and for just using when I want to quickly capture a song idea or melody line. Both are fairly easy to use and both are high quality recorders. I don't really think you can go wrong with either brand. The menu selections are fairly straight forward and reading the manual will take you a long way.

For my H4N, I generally use an MXL V67 external mic for vocals and I use a set of Samson C02 pencil mics for recording guitar in stereo. I record a click track first with guitar and vocals. Then I come back and record each individual part: Acoustic guitar, electric guitar, banjo (sometimes), mandolin (sometimes), bass, and sometimes percussion. I then overlay each track to make something useable. I'm not very good, but I love playing around with it. It helps me to see where my deficiencies are anyway!

Todd

[cravenmonket]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think you'd be hard-pressed to hear a clear, consistent difference that everyone would agree on between a Zoom H4 with external mics and a much more expensive setup with the same mics in the same room, etc. Even with the built-in mics, it's close enough that unless you're making professional recordings, and both you and your listeners have picky and trained ears, the difference be undetectable.

Hmmm, not sure I would agree entirely...

I've had an H4n for a couple of years. It is a neat little pocket recorder, and it is very useful for certain applications, but I would never use it for a serious recording.

The built-in stereo mics are fine, and produce an honest stereo image. In fact, as a scratch-pad/demo-machine, you'll be able to create very decent-sounding recordings.

BUT the preamps are REALLY noisy, so if you're making solo guitar, or quiet guitar and vocal recordings, you'll have to deal with a lot of hiss. The preamps just aren't that great.

I have also experimented by using the H4n with a pair of Rode NT1A LDCs, and the problem is even more obvious. Ultimately, the better the microphones, the more you're going to be bothered by the cheap preamps.

It's a shame, really, because other than that, it's a nice little device. The interface is a bit clumsy, but once you get used to it, it's fine. Battery life is really good, it is sturdy and extremely portable. I use it for on-the-fly demos when I get a flash of inspiration but I'm not in the studio.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by cravenmonket

H
BUT the preamps are REALLY noisy, so if you're making solo guitar, or quiet guitar and vocal recordings, you'll have to deal with a lot of hiss. The preamps just aren't that great..

Noise is definitely the weak point of these units. I think they're astounding for the price, but a lot depends on how you use them, and what your expectations are. The H4n is *way* quieter than the previous recorder I used, the Roland R09, for example. I also suspect it's the mics (and any associated circuitry) that are the issue, because I find using external mics, which still use at least some part of the internal preamps and A/Ds to be fine, at least substantially quieter. There may also be a quality control issue - keep in mind that the mics in these units probably cost a few cents!. I got the H6 about the same time as Fran Guidry. I think the unit is a fantastic upgrade to the H4, but the internal mics in mine are below the threshold of usability for me - worse than my H4. Fran reports that his is very quiet.

But as far as using them for home recording, I think they're all plenty good enough. For a lot of home setups, the environmental noise will far outweigh, and mask, any internal noise. And with a bit of care, you can get very professional results. I know of one pro guitarist, whose name would be very familiar to everyone here, who recorded a CD entirely on the Zoom H4 (the older one, not the n). He used external (rather budget) mics, and I haven't heard anyone complaining that his CD isn't up to par.

There have been lots of people posting with sample recordings here, many really, really good. But I'll toss out a few examples that may show what the H4n can sound like, for better or worse. See if you think these are satisfactory for home recording or if the noise is unacceptable (Keep in mind that these are all on You Tube and have been subjected to You Tube's audio mangling process - they all sounded better before I uploaded them)

Recorded with H4n internal mics + guitar pickup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbYbdd4Qn0

I recorded this in a living room, internal mics only, H4n sitting on a cardboard box:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGH2MEbTxY0

H4n with *external* mics, recorded in a small spare bedroom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WUL_zBhNPs

[cravenmonket]

Beautiful playing in that final video, Doug!

What sort of post-production did you do on the track? There's a touch of reverb added, isn't there? But the reverb on the H4n isn't very versatile. What about EQ?

I agree that for many recording environments, the hiss may not matter much, especially if you have more going on in the recording. Also, it is possible to minimize the problem by boosting the recording input and keeping the mics close. I just found that, overall, the preamps were rather a disappointment. But then I use a MOTU in my home studio, which has wonderful preamps.

Another thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that you can actually use the H4n as a USB audio interface with your computer and a DAW. It has rather high latency compared with most interfaces, but if you're in a pinch it is quite usable.

[Doug Young]

I use the Zooms as capture devices. Any post-processing is done in Logic. So any reverb would be one of the reverb plugins I have, depending on the track. My studio chain for serious audio-only recording is a bit more sophisticated, but for You Tube quality, I find the Zoom's to be more than sufficient, and they're portable and easy to use, so I can video in places other than my studio.

However, Pierre Bensusan was using a Zoom for a while as his live preamp! He used the EQ and effects (reverb) for his guitar, running into the mixer. He no longer does that, and again, this use bypasses the mics, but he was living with the preamps and built in effects even being amplified to fill a live room. Pretty wild.

BTW, Fran reminded me offline that my noise experience with the H6 was with the MS mic module, while he reported the XY module to be quiet. Apparently he has reproduced my noise issue with the MS mics. I haven't had a chance to try the XY mics on mine yet. This sort of reinforces the idea that it's the mics (or closely related cicuitry) that are causing noise.

[rickwaugh]

Doug, I have an AT2020, and a Zoom H1. I'm considering getting some kind of connector for my AT2020 to feed into my iPad. I believe I saw somewhere you said you had an AT2020 or two that you used. Is there much difference in the recording quality between the mics built into the Zoom recorders, and the AT2020? The AT2020 is not a super top end mic, but I have got decent sound out of it in the past.

Upshot is, if it's not a big deal, I'll just continue with the Zoom for my youtube/practice mics. The one thing I would like to do is use my iPad to record video, as it's convenient, and it would be nice to plug in some kind of external mic to replace the iPads built in unit.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rickwaugh

Doug, I have an AT2020, and a Zoom H1. I'm considering getting some kind of connector for my AT2020 to feed into my iPad. I believe I saw somewhere you said you had an AT2020 or two that you used. Is there much difference in the recording quality between the mics built into the Zoom recorders, and the AT2020? The AT2020 is not a super top end mic, but I have got decent sound out of it in the past.

Upshot is, if it's not a big deal, I'll just continue with the Zoom for my youtube/practice mics. The one thing I would like to do is use my iPad to record video, as it's convenient, and it would be nice to plug in some kind of external mic to replace the iPads built in unit.

I think a pair of 2020s is an upgrade compared to the internal mics. If nothing else, they allow you to use different mic placements. The 2020's work surprisingly well. If you're moving from stereo with the Zoom to mono with a single mic, you may miss the added space of the stereo image, tho.

[rickwaugh]

Hmm, yes, I suppose that's true. I may go with the IRig, then. It's easy to leave everything set up that way, and easy works best.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by rickwaugh

Doug, I have an AT2020, and a Zoom H1. I'm considering getting some kind of connector for my AT2020 to feed into my iPad. I believe I saw somewhere you said you had an AT2020 or two that you used. Is there much difference in the recording quality between the mics built into the Zoom recorders, and the AT2020? The AT2020 is not a super top end mic, but I have got decent sound out of it in the past.

Upshot is, if it's not a big deal, I'll just continue with the Zoom for my youtube/practice mics. The one thing I would like to do is use my iPad to record video, as it's convenient, and it would be nice to plug in some kind of external mic to replace the iPads built in unit.

Perhaps connect the H1 to the iPad?

https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0

Apparently it requires the camera connection kit and a powered USB hub.

Fran

[rickwaugh]

That's the thing, Fran. It's 40 bucks for the camera kit, that may nor may not work. I'm seeing mixed reviews. I do have an E-MU 0404 that I can plug the mic into, that might work right into the camera kit. Or I can buy the IRig Pre for 40 bucks, that has a better guarantee of working.