Vuelta A España - Sepp Kuss!!!

[raysachs]

Are any of you cycling fans following the Vuelta? Jumbo Visma has won the first two grand tours this year, with Primoz Roglic winning the Giro de Italia, and Jonas Vingegaard winning the Tour de France. In both races, Sepp Kuss, an American from Durango, CO has been the super domestique in the mountains, being an amazing support rider, but not going for any results of his own.

In the Vuelta, through 14 stages, those three Jumbo Visma riders are in the first three places, with Vingegaard in third, Roglic in second, and Sepp Kuss leading the overall standings. The time trials are all completed, so Kuss appears to have a very good chance of carrying this lead into Madrid. Assuming his two teammates continue to ride in support of him, which they SHOULD given his huge efforts in support of them. In a time trial, I assume they’d all ride for themselves, but in the remaining flat and mountain stages, barring him totally cracking at some point, he should be the first American to win a grand tour since Chris Horner 10 years ago and before that, Greg LeMond and Andy Hamsten over 30 years ago (not counting Lance Armstrong and Floyd Landis wins in the Tour De France that were stripped from both for doping infractions).

No, I don’t assume these guys are riding clean, but neither are their competitors, and to see Jumbo Visma in position to sweep the podium is an amazing performance…

-Ray

[s2y]

I've been watching. It would be nice, although Pogacar's attack yesterday may suggest someone else on the team will take it.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by s2y

I've been watching. It would be nice, although Pogacar's attack yesterday may suggest someone else on the team will take it.

You mean Vingegaard, right? Pretty clearly, the team is gonna win the race, the only question being which one of them and whether they can occupy all three steps of the final podium…

-Ray

[s2y]

Originally Posted by raysachs

You mean Vingegaard, right? Pretty clearly, the team is gonna win the race, the only question being which one of them and whether they can occupy all three steps of the final podium…

-Ray

Or Roglic. Same tactic again. Seems cheap or greedy, IMO.

[Dirk Hofman]

Ya gotta earn a GT win, don’t think they should be gifting him anything. Hope he wins, but I think Vingo is the strongest and will prevail.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

Ya gotta earn a GT win, don’t think they should be gifting him anything. Hope he wins, but I think Vingo is the strongest and will prevail.

A lot of riders were heavily critical of Roglic and Vingegaard dropping Kuss on the Angliru on Wednesday. They’re not obligated to let him win, but when you’re teammate is in the race lead, you don’t attack him like that unless there’s a tactical reason to do so, like if the podium is still in doubt, but it wasn’t at all. Sounds like they got marching orders today and supported him. They’re gonna want Kuss to bury himself FOR THEM in next year’s Giro and Tour and I’d think he’d be much more inclined to do that if they support him at this point in this Vuelta.

There have gotta be some tense times on that team bus in these last days of the race.

-Ray

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by raysachs

A lot of riders were heavily critical of Roglic and Vingegaard dropping Kuss on the Angliru on Wednesday. They’re not obligated to let him win, but when you’re teammate is in the race lead, you don’t attack him like that unless there’s a tactical reason to do so, like if the podium is still in doubt, but it wasn’t at all. Sounds like they got marching orders today and supported him. They’re gonna want Kuss to bury himself FOR THEM in next year’s Giro and Tour and I’d think he’d be much more inclined to do that if they support him at this point in this Vuelta.

There have gotta be some tense times on that team bus in these last days of the race.

-Ray

I’m not as bothered as a lot of fans are by them wanting to sort it out on the road. It’s a Grand Tour, the strongest should win, and inter-team rivalries are no new thing in cycling as you know. Wiggins and Froome, Lemond and Hinault, and so on. If Kuss had been the designated leader and started to falter, yes the team should all wait and help. But Kuss is the designated domestique, and while very strong versus the field, he’s clearly not the strongest on the team.

Kuss is in red because he got in a breakaway and has defended extremely well since. I like that the team has finally settled on supporting him, but I’d have had zero issue with Vingegaard attacking again and letting the strongest win.

Evenepoel amazing again today. That guy is something else. Never seen anyone ride on the front for 100k and just drop everyone. It’s crazy.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

I’m not as bothered as a lot of fans are by them wanting to sort it out on the road. It’s a Grand Tour, the strongest should win, and inter-team rivalries are no new thing in cycling as you know. Wiggins and Froome, Lemond and Hinault, and so on. If Kuss had been the designated leader and started to falter, yes the team should all wait and help. But Kuss is the designated domestique, and while very strong versus the field, he’s clearly not the strongest on the team.

Kuss is in red because he got in a breakaway and has defended extremely well since. I like that the team has finally settled on supporting him, but I’d have had zero issue with Vingegaard attacking again and letting the strongest win.

Evenepoel amazing again today. That guy is something else. Never seen anyone ride on the front for 100k and just drop everyone. It’s crazy.

No, inter-team rivalries are nothing new, but they reap havoc on team cohesion. It was one thing for Roglic going for the stage win - he was no danger to Kuss. But Vingegaard didn’t share the work with Roglic (not that it matters much at 20%!), he just rode his wheel to try to take the most time possible out of Kuss. Geraint Thomas and nearly every commentator I’ve seen thought it was a low class move. Team leadership must have felt the same way given how they fell into line today. I’m sure if Vingegaard was trying to win, he’d have attacked again today, but someone must have gotten into his ear about needing Kuss next year. Roll and Vandeveld were suggesting Kuss would be fully justified in switching teams in the off-season. Thomas was saying he should jump to Ineos.

I agree about Evenepoel though. Would have been interesting if he hadn’t cracked so badly on that one stage…

-Ray

[Charmed Life Picks]

Great discussion, folks. I haven't had time to follow the race very closely, but it's exciting to see an American in the mix. It's been a long time.

sm

[Dirk Hofman]

Great discussion of the Jumbo situation here. Good to see someone acknowledging the Roglič point of view.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

Great discussion of the Jumbo situation here. Good to see someone acknowledging the Roglič point of view.

That was interesting regarding Roglic's expectation when the Vuelta began and the potential friction between he and Vingegaard, and Roglic's likely jump to another team (which Johan thinks should be Ineos) for next year. But I didn't hear any support for the team NOT supporting Kuss on that stage. Spencer said what I'd been thinking, which is that it was fine for Roglic to go for the stage win, as the third place rider on the team, but that Vingegaard should NOT have gone with him - he should have stayed with Kuss. But it appears that the possible bad blood between the team's two designated leaders caused Vingegaard to jump onto Roglic's wheel because if Kuss somehow wasn't gonna win, he didn't want Roglic to ride away with it instead of him.

But listen to their take immediately after stage 17, where Johan states unequivocally that they should NOT have attacked Kuss, they should have absolutely supported him as the team's first priority.



And they go into more detail on this most recent one, after Jumbo coalesced around Kuss on stage 18.



I mean, Johan Bruyneel (sp?), who was Lance Armstrong's Director Sportif during Lance's whole bullying reign, was adamant that you don't attack your race leading teammate in that situation. Especially given what Kuss has done for the team over the past few seasons and what they NEED him to continue to do for them next year. I don't know what he was saying to Lance when he was undercutting Contador when they were co-leaders on Discovery, but he was clear about this situation.

-Ray

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by raysachs

That was interesting regarding Roglic's expectation when the Vuelta began and the potential friction between he and Vingegaard, and Roglic's likely jump to another team (which Johan thinks should be Ineos) for next year. But I didn't hear any support for the team NOT supporting Kuss on that stage. Spencer said what I'd been thinking, which is that it was fine for Roglic to go for the stage win, as the third place rider on the team, but that Vingegaard should NOT have gone with him - he should have stayed with Kuss. But it appears that the possible bad blood between the team's two designated leaders caused Vingegaard to jump onto Roglic's wheel because if Kuss somehow wasn't gonna win, he didn't want Roglic to ride away with it instead of him.

...

I mean, Johan Bruyneel (sp?), who was Lance Armstrong's Director Sportif during Lance's whole bullying reign, was adamant that you don't attack your race leading teammate in that situation. Especially given what Kuss has done for the team over the past few seasons and what they NEED him to continue to do for them next year. I don't know what he was saying to Lance when he was undercutting Contador when they were co-leaders on Discovery, but he was clear about this situation.

-Ray

I'm not saying I have an issue with them supporting Kuss. I'm simply saying that I could also see the argument for riding for the strongest, who was actually IMO Vingegaard. But also clearly he didn't want it. I can also see the argument from the Roglič POV. I think all the complaining about them dropping Kuss is partly about how ridiculously strong they are and it breeding some discontent in the media and fans, and anything they do "wrong" is amplified 100x. You can see how they back off their comments from the previous days in the latest episode, after they all calm down a bit and they can start to see another perspective. That and it's US media, rooting for Kuss, though that certainly isn't the only reason. Anyway, like I said, I'm not as wound up as most others about them dropping Kuss, for the reasons I stated and they provide some very good other ones in the latest episode. I also think Bruyneel's analysis of the Roglič situation at Jumbo is spot on and worth a listen.

Regarding what Bruyneel said after Lance complained that Contador attacked on Arcalis was that "it wasn't the team plan". The team plan was not to have the best climber in the world attack on one of the few stages where he could make a difference, one of only 2 HC finishing climbs in the race? Sorry, that dog don't hunt. That's Johan just trying to make peace.

Lance ran that team, period.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

Regarding what Bruyneel said after Lance complained that Contador attacked on Arcalis was that "it wasn't the team plan". The team plan was not to have the best climber in the world attack on one of the few stages where he could make a difference, one of only 2 HC finishing climbs in the race? Sorry, that dog don't hunt. That's Johan just trying to make peace.

Lance ran that team, period.

Agreed, I was basically saying I don’t know what Johan said back then as shorthand for it didn’t matter (also, I didn’t remember). Because, as you said, he was working for Lance, not the other way around…

-Ray

[s2y]

Let's look back to the 2012 TdF. Froome could have easily dropped Wiggo to win the Tour. Froom was indeed the strongest rider. Dropping Wiggo would have maybe put him 3rd or 4th. Working with Wiggins allowed Sky to take 1st and 2nd.

JV already had the podium sealed tightly. Attacking Sepp maybe got an extra stage win or two while also leaving Kuss on his own. He could have cracked and dropped off the podium. It seemed very greedy since Primoz and Jonas will likely have multiple grand tour wins next year. It's rare that a domestique is in a position to win a grand tour. There have been many over the years that worked their tails off and weren't allowed to win then found themselves without a contract in a year or two.

When I was racing, we did our best to share the work and wins whenever possible. My team was previously working for a single rider many years ago and almost all of the "help" left.

[raysachs]

So, nice guys occasionally finish first. I’m glad JV finally put the drama aside and supported Kuss in the end. Coming out of the final rest day in the dominant position they were in, I’d have been disappointed with a different result. Barring a massive crack on one of the last mountain stages, Kuss deserved this one and I’m glad the team came together for him in the end.

What a ridiculous year for Jumbo Visma. All three grand tours won, with three different riders. With the winner of the third having ridden all three. Pretty insane, not to mention unprecedented.

-Ray