High quality vocal mic

[DupleMeter]

I will also add that I do have a C12, that Shannon Rhoades modified to give a little more bottom & make a little less bright. He called it the "251 mod".

So a little history may be in order.

A long time ago Telefunken was rebranding & selling Neumann U47s to the markets that Neumann didn't have any channels into. At that time Telefunken was not manufacturing any of the microphones they were selling. This was a highly lucrative market for Telefunken. Of course, the day came that Neumann was able to make inroads & gain direct access to those markets & they stopped supplying Telefunken with u47s to rebadge & sell. Telefunken wanted to keep the revenue stream, so they approached AKG & asked them to make a mic that was similar to the u47 that they could sell. AKG developed the ELA M251 to fit that need. Now, being AKG, it was brighter than any Neumann, but it was a lot more wooly than the C12. It fit right between the U47 & the C12.

Sadly, some of the changes they made in the manufacturing process are the things that often are problematic in the 251s. The plastic they used to replace some of the metal mounts that the C12 had are notorious for degrading.

It's also interesting how Neumann felt the 47FET was a better mic & stopped producing the tube U47 for a while before realizing they needed a tube mic again. So, in 1960, they introduced the U60, which was renamed the U67, to fill that gap.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

I'm not sure how he found anything to complain about in the quoted part of your post and his last bit about the C12 which was never even brought up in your post, let alone the part he quoted is even more confusing.

Great contributions you've been posting up and don't let yourself get thrown off track.

Hey thanks, that confused me a little too, but it's the internet. :-)!

I'm glad my rambling wasn't perceived by someone as, well, over-rambling!

I've blown so much money on gear for very marginal gains. I'd just hope to help someone avoid that. Mics are tough. It's hard to get first hand experience with all the options. Oh, how I love mics though, and I've chosen to save for and buy some relatively expensive ones. Because I enjoy them, but also because something like an R44 is just gigantic sounding.

Over the years, I've run into a lot of anecdotes...Frank Sinatra didn't really sing into big ribbons or U47s...he did for photos only...that he preferred some sort of handheld dynamic mic. And you read over and over that U87ais are unbearably bright...the i version was Karen Carpenter's preferred mic...her voice is the definition of warmth to me and it's not like it was ever a dark mic, right? Stevie Nicks and her preferred Sennheiser 441. Or that Gillian Welch and Rawlings use a LOT of SM57s both in the studio and on stage.

It's easy to read internet forums, read gear reviews and opinions, and get out your credit card like you're shopping for a barbecue. Too easy!

Someone mentioned a Lawson experience above, and that's awesome! Doesn't sound like it we had same impression, and it makes me want to borrow my buddy's and see if I still live it as much as I remember and romanticize it. :-)

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Hey thanks, that confused me a little too, but it's the internet. :-)!

I'm glad my rambling wasn't perceived by someone as, well, over-rambling!

I've blown so much money on gear for very marginal gains. I'd just hope to help someone avoid that. Mics are tough. It's hard to get first hand experience with all the options. Oh, how I love mics though, and I've chosen to save for and buy some relatively expensive ones. Because I enjoy them, but also because something like an R44 is just gigantic sounding.

Over the years, I've run into a lot of anecdotes...Frank Sinatra didn't really sing into big ribbons or U47s...he did for photos only...that he preferred some sort of handheld dynamic mic. And you read over and over that U87ais are unbearably bright...the i version was Karen Carpenter's preferred mic...her voice is the definition of warmth to me and it's not like it was ever a dark mic, right? Stevie Nicks and her preferred Sennheiser 441. Or that Gillian Welch and Rawlings use a LOT of SM57s both in the studio and on stage.

It's easy to read internet forums, read gear reviews and opinions, and get out your credit card like you're shopping for a barbecue. Too easy!

Someone mentioned a Lawson experience above, and that's awesome! Doesn't sound like it we had same impression, and it makes me want to borrow my buddy's and see if I still live it as much as I remember and romanticize it. :-)

Heck don't be confused,,, written communication is often prone to different interpretations than what was perhaps intended.
For example "Historically, The 251 style is popular on female singers." could be interpreted as being a bit ambiguous given "Historically" female singers sang into all manner of mic make models .. No doubt the 251 being one "popular" choice.

As noted ultimately the vocal mic is so subjective it's very hard to make accurate recommendations And obviously we all are trying to offer the benefit of our experiences
But ultimately and in the long run , it is probably equally hard to help someone "avoid" spending money on "marginal gains" (which in and of itself is a subjective conclusion)

As far as historical anecdotes those should also be taken with caution especially when offered as a blanket statements I am betting that the mics Sinatra actually sang into were as often as not a function of what the studio or performance venue had . Because it has been also "anecdotally" offered that when he finally signed with Capitol that he in fact found a Telefunken 47 that he loved (called "My Telly" ) and used on most of his recordings with Capital.

Now back to the Lawson L47 I sang into for my demo session.... to clarify a bit further ..

This was 15-18 years ago and it was a good news bad news situation and my perspective may have been skewed a bit because of that situation.

The Good news was :: The day before we recorded my demo session, they were doing a mic shoot out at the studio. And there was an up and coming producer, named Mark Hornsby who had an outstanding vintage U47 mic that was part of that shootout and I was able to sing into, ( that may well have informed my perspective )
The Bad news was he had to leave that afternoon with his U47 and so I could not use it for my demos the next day ..... such is life.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Hey thanks, that confused me a little too, but it's the internet. :-)!

I'm glad my rambling wasn't perceived by someone as, well, over-rambling!

I've blown so much money on gear for very marginal gains. I'd just hope to help someone avoid that. Mics are tough. It's hard to get first hand experience with all the options. Oh, how I love mics though, and I've chosen to save for and buy some relatively expensive ones. Because I enjoy them, but also because something like an R44 is just gigantic sounding.

Over the years, I've run into a lot of anecdotes...Frank Sinatra didn't really sing into big ribbons or U47s...he did for photos only...that he preferred some sort of handheld dynamic mic. And you read over and over that U87ais are unbearably bright...the i version was Karen Carpenter's preferred mic...her voice is the definition of warmth to me and it's not like it was ever a dark mic, right? Stevie Nicks and her preferred Sennheiser 441. Or that Gillian Welch and Rawlings use a LOT of SM57s both in the studio and on stage.

It's easy to read internet forums, read gear reviews and opinions, and get out your credit card like you're shopping for a barbecue. Too easy!

Someone mentioned a Lawson experience above, and that's awesome! Doesn't sound like it we had same impression, and it makes me want to borrow my buddy's and see if I still live it as much as I remember and romanticize it. :-)

I feel like I’m being misinterpreted here & want to make sure people get my intentions right.

I’m not speaking from hearsay or things I’ve read in the internet, I’m speaking from 35 years of being in studios working with artists, using the gear I’m talking about & making records.

So, please don’t take it as me being argumentative. I’m just trying to keep balance & share real world experience, which can be in contradiction to a lot of “internet truths”. That said, I will call out misinformation, because that’s just not cool.

I am emphatic that people be clear when giving advice that it’s either “I’ve heard it, but have no experience” or “this is from real world experience”. If you’re the former, I feel it dishonest not to come out & say that, because then all you have is an untested opinion. That’s not the same as advice from experience. It’s a pet peeve of mine.

In the end, the gear never matters nearly as much as the talent of the artist. I fully admit that I sometime will make a mic choice during a session because something is already setup & ready to go [emoji6] I’ve never had that ruin a session/record/song.

Everyone have a great New Year & make some music.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by KevWind

As far as historical anecdotes those should also be taken with caution especially when offered as a blanket statements I am betting that the mics Sinatra actually sang into were as often as not a function of what the studio or performance venue had . Because it has been also "anecdotally" offered that when he finally signed with Capitol that he in fact found a Telefunken 47 that he loved (called "My Telly" ) and used on most of his recordings with Capital.

Now back to the Lawson L47 I sang into for my demo session.... to clarify a bit further ..

This was 15-18 years ago and it was a good news bad news situation and my perspective may have been skewed a bit because of that situation.

The Good news was :: The day before we recorded my demo session, they were doing a mic shoot out at the studio. And there was an up and coming producer, named Mark Hornsby who had an outstanding vintage U47 mic that was part of that shootout and I was able to sing into, ( that may well have informed my perspective )
The Bad news was he had to leave that afternoon with his U47 and so I could not use it for my demos the next day ..... such is life.

Re: historical anecdotes, TRUTH! And that's a cool thing about Sinatra, thanks! It just always surprises me to find out that some of the singers that have literally defined popular music in the last 50 years don't choose to sing into golden vintage U47s or other holy grail mics. For me, there's something valuable to learn in that. I, for one, like relating and hearing stories like that. They're just stories.

Re: Lawson, I borrowed for months and months from a buddy to do vocals on a record at home, and had it alongside a U87ai, a Peluso 2247, and a Peluso 2247LE. The Lawson had a larger than life quality that I've never forgotten...much airier than the Pelusos, or even the U87ai, and just a little more of everything than any of them. Still, I ended up using the 2244LE tracks because it was a little more focused sounding, and IMO, had a little more "vintage vibe". I can't imagine how it would stack up to a vintage U47 - I envy that you've gotten to work with one!

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

A 251 is preferable to a C12 on almost any female voice. C12s are killer on acoustic instruments, though.

I'd be careful making blanket statements like that

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by jim1960

The OP seems to have disappeared. I was hoping he'd respond to the questions I asked as it's impossible to make a solid mic recommendation when the only thing we know is that it's for a woman. We can all talk about what we'd reach for first (in my case it would be my Blue Kiwi through my Demeter VTMP-2c) but sometimes what we reach for first isn't the best choice. As any of us who have been at this a while knows, vocals mics are very much about what works best with a particular person's voice and (to a lesser extent) to the kind of song being recorded. Just saying it's "for a woman" is only going to result in all of us giving our personal preferences any of which may be great or terrible choices for the woman he's referencing.

TRUTH! And I've always been interested to hear the Kiwi!

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Re: historical anecdotes, TRUTH! And that's a cool thing about Sinatra, thanks! It just always surprises me to find out that some of the singers that have literally defined popular music in the last 50 years don't choose to sing into golden vintage U47s or other holy grail mics. For me, there's something valuable to learn in that. I, for one, like relating and hearing stories like that. They're just stories.

Re: Lawson, I borrowed for months and months from a buddy to do vocals on a record at home, and had it alongside a U87ai, a Peluso 2247, and a Peluso 2247LE. The Lawson had a larger than life quality that I've never forgotten...much airier than the Pelusos, or even the U87ai, and just a little more of everything than any of them. Still, I ended up using the 2244LE tracks because it was a little more focused sounding, and IMO, had a little more "vintage vibe". I can't imagine how it would stack up to a vintage U47 - I envy that you've gotten to work with one!

I have no experience with Peluso But I have done some recording with a U87ai
And thought is was a pretty good mic for my voice But it was the first real studio and studio grade mic I had ever used (prior had only used an SM57) so it may have just been first impression wow factor

Well the vintage 47 I really only got to sing 1 verse thru -- but it was pretty dam cool

Here is the 87 ai



And here is my ADK 251 same song (I think is is a few db louder but do not know how to adj. that on Soundcloud ) But it is two different performances and two different rooms

[KevWind]

opps double post

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I don't think the u87ai is a good deal. If you can find a u87i, that would be worth grabbing...but, those are going for $4k a pop these days. I think Neumann ruined the u87 when they revamped it in the '80s (1985 I think was the release of the u87ai).

Good for you. Considering the money you can lose buying 3 mics before it because people on the internet say they're "bright" or "ruined" compared to the i version, or whatever other nonsense, then I think they're a great deal. And yes, I have experience with the i and ai versions of the mic. On vocals, the ai sounds like no other mic I've had or have. As is, it's zippy in the high trebles, but it's not hard to notch that out with eq. If, on the other hand, I need that presence for a vocal to cut through a mix, the brightness that "ruins" that mic comes in handy.

That said, imo they handicapped the ai by reducing the headroom, but that's probably the only reason I'd get an i over an ai. The ai is easy to overload - there are plenty who say the same. When I sang into it regularly, I had to pad it a lot, and never really pad any vocal mics I'm singing into.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I have no experience with Peluso But I have done some recording with a U87ai
And thought is was a pretty good mic for my voice But it was the first real studio and studio grade mic I had ever used (prior had only used an SM57) so it may have just been first impression wow factor

Nice files! Assuming that you didn't notch out its inherent presence peak, I don't know how anyone would characterize the U87ai as patently "bright" on that performance. And that ADK track definitely sounds like the 251 type sound as I hear it. Prob a very nice mic! :-)

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I feel like I’m being misinterpreted here & want to make sure people get my intentions right.

I’m not speaking from hearsay or things I’ve read in the internet, I’m speaking from 35 years of being in studios working with artists, using the gear I’m talking about & making records.

So, please don’t take it as me being argumentative. I’m just trying to keep balance & share real world experience, which can be in contradiction to a lot of “internet truths”. That said, I will call out misinformation, because that’s just not cool.

I am emphatic that people be clear when giving advice that it’s either “I’ve heard it, but have no experience” or “this is from real world experience”. If you’re the former, I feel it dishonest not to come out & say that, because then all you have is an untested opinion. That’s not the same as advice from experience. It’s a pet peeve of mine.

Since you're calling me out here, other than referring to 251 style mics when you were referencing C12s, what misinformation have I delivered? I have heard and used every mic I claimed to in my posts. What experience am I falsely portraying in thy grand and noble presence? I never claimed to have experience with your modded C12 or something - or a C12 at all. I only said that I had luck recording a female singer with a 251 type mic.

Also, since when does hearing a mic fail to qualify as experience? What do I have to do to get "real" experience your highness? And besides, if someone says they've heard a microphone, I assume they've used it, but then again, maybe everyone's going to local mic "shootouts" these days.

It's not like we're here to argue a court case. Anecdotes are just that - stories, coffee talk, etc. I'm glad when someone blows up some perception I have. That's one way people gather information to inform future experiences and choices and to learn. I expect my opinions, if anyone cares to read them, to be taken with a grain of salt. I guess I should be glad that you're here with your sagely experience to guide me. haha

Lastly, I'll interpret you how I want to - I don't need your help or guidance on that either. That your highness will proclaim THIRTY FIVE YEARS of engineering experience in some patronizing and authoritative way tells me you're pompous and strangely willing to insult everyone. How do you know what experience people have here? And your "I've been out there in the trenches making records blah blah." Yawn. You sound convinced you're the only one. And to be honest, you haven't related much experience in this thread other than to suggest a couple of microphones, throw our some "warm" and "desert island", the bass player thing, and then call other people out, and suggest that internet should bow to your 35 years of "real" experience and interpret you differently. Nope.

Anyway, I mean it when I say best to you, and YES, everyone go enjoy recording and microphones. I'll bet the TLM67 is great. And warm.

[dnf777]

This has been a great discussion with loads of great info and experience…lets keep it going, and watch the tone (getting close to rule #1 boundary)

Not calling anyone out specifically, but lets head into 2023 on a friendly note, and keep this going.

[Lkristians]

I'm doubling down here. Keep it civil, please or we'll shut this thread down. Happy New Year.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Nice files! Assuming that you didn't notch out its inherent presence peak, I don't know how anyone would characterize the U87ai as patently "bright" on that performance. And that ADK track definitely sounds like the 251 type sound as I hear it. Prob a very nice mic! :-)

Humm ,,, well it's been a good long while since recording using the 87ai. March 2002 (actually two U87 ai's , one on vocal, and one on acoustic guitar, tracked at the same time) So my memory is a bit fuzzy but I do not think the engineer did much in mixing other than a tiny bit of reverb. But I could be mistaken, studio recording was all so new to me, I am not sure how close of attention I paid.. It was recorded at a high end midtown Manhattan, post production studio, the engineer was in one control room, and I was in the other.
They used Pro Tools TDM and it was that engineer that suggested I look into a PT LE system when I went back home to Wyoming.... and got me started on the "long and winding road" of home recording