Similar To: In Praise of Cheap Guitars (but about pickups)

[ChrisN]

I didn't want to muck up Fazool's thread on cheap guitars (which I love and have), but the discussion there prompts a question I hope can be answered in this separate thread.

In your opinion gained from experience, is it ultimately "worth it" to put "nice" pickups in an Asian factory built guitar, or is the improvement from the pickups, even if noticeable, just too limited by the underlying guitar foundation/construction/materials to justify the effort/expense (on a semi-hollow)? In other words, how much does the cheaper construction/materials hold back the perceived improvement from the better pickups? The pickups would cost 3/4 of the guitar's purchase price new.

I have an Ibanez ASV10a, which is their AS size "vintage" in a satin relic finish over its maple/poplar/maple laminate, so it's not got a thick poly coat, which I like. The block inlayed neck is beefy (.93 at the 1st), which I like, and I like the 15.75" lower bout, as well as the output jack on the outer rim. It's everything I like, physically, in a 335 style guitar (a Gibson equivalent would be a VOS Historic, etc.), but the pickups are a little higher output that seems to make them less clear than I'd like. The "Classic Elite" pickups, I think, are intended to lean toward more distortion. They measure in the 9+k neck 10+k bridge range.

I've read others say Ibanez semis are overbuilt, dead, etc., which, if true, wouldn't seem to make them good candidates for a pickup upgrade. I don't want to throw good money away, but neither do I want to spend $2500-3500 (or more) or so for the "real thing" 335 (which wouldn't have my preferred neck, output jack) - I can't justify that at my level. Some say pickups make all the difference to any guitar, while others say there's no getting around cheap factory construction/materials - the guitar won't resonate enough to make the pickups worthwhile if it's too heavily built.

Would you try the pickups, at the risk of taking it all apart again if you sell? Live with what came in it and spend the time/energy practicing? Stop trying to make cheap guitars into something they're not, and just "get a good one"?

For reference, I've got a Gibson 339 and a 390 (hollow 339). The 339 has nice electronics, and it seems a little more resonant than the Ibanez, but that could be confirmation bias. Either way, it's not "oh, wow!" different from the Ibanez.

Thanks for any input.

[RoyBoy]

There are a boatload of PAF styled pickups out there, each with their positive reviews. I have an Epi 339 and have tried a few different ones, still not floating my boat. With humbuckers in a semi-hollow, I wouldn't think the guitar construction would have much effect on tone. What I have heard lots of times is that classic 57s is what makes those guitars really sing. If I wasn't so totally wrapped up in single coils, I probably would have sprung for them by now.

[FrankHudson]

In my experience, yes, it's worth considering. Yes, it can make a significant change.

A few things around this subject:

If you haven't yet, try lowering the pickups in your guitar. It'll make more of change in the sound than you might expect. It's free, and worth the small amount of time it takes to try this.

It should go without saying, but this is likely not worth doing if you don't like the guitar physically. If the size, frets, neck, action, feel, or other things bug you, you may not get the worth of the better sound.

Yes, working on hollow-bodies makes things a bit more troublesome. If I went to the trouble I'd also change out the entire wiring harness, pots, selector switch and so on too. If this troubles you to consider doing yourself, and you have the money, consider paying someone to do it. Ah! The typical Fender solid body is so easy to swap pickups and associated circuitry on. Part of Leo's genius I think.

No, you may not increase the value of the guitar if you resell it. But with an instrument like this (not a "name brand" much less vintage guitar) you probably won't hurt resale value any either. With the right buyer you might get a bit more for it with the upgrades than if you reverted it to "stock" with the factory pickups, so I wouldn't worry about that.

The cost of the guitar vs the cost of the pickups (or pickups, plus wiring, plus installation) is immaterial. You're looking for an instrument, a music making tool, not a balanced bill of materials. Your loss on resale for a modified instrument is likely greater if you did the swap on a Gibson 335 than on something more generic, so if you want to consider that, it makes more sense to mod a less expensive guitar than one that costs more but derives more of it's value from being "just like it came from the factory."

Some electric guitar players like to go on about how the non-pickup parts impact the sound of an electric guitar. There are some effects from those things, yes, and some can be heard of you're listening for them particularly when played at lower volumes and into a clean amp. The more gain the more effects the less these can be heard even if one is listening for them clinically. Pickups and the amp are well more than 75% of an electric guitar's sound (if one eliminates the tremendous impact of the player). Particularly with humbuckers, I've encountered a great many examples, often in inexpensive guitars, that don't have a sound that interests me. If that's what you got, on a guitar you otherwise like, I'd say: go ahead and do it.

Here's one downside: you may like the pickups you swap in either. I once did the highly popular JB bridge/Jazz neck swap in a Flying V copy. I didn't care for the original pickups, and didn't care for those replacement pickups in that guitar either.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by RoyBoy

With humbuckers in a semi-hollow, I wouldn't think the guitar construction would have much effect on tone.

That's the issue, for me. If a lighter built guitar (arguably, the higher quality are built lighter, more resonant) resonates more, then the pickups will also take up that resonance and pass it on. That's why semis sound airier (I call it nasal honk) than solid bodies. If correct, the converse would also seem true.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

In my experience, yes, it's worth considering. Yes, it can make a significant change.

A few things around this subject:

If you haven't yet, try lowering the pickups in your guitar. It'll make more of change in the sound than you might expect. It's free, and worth the small amount of time it takes to try this.

It should go without saying, but this is likely not worth doing if you don't like the guitar physically. If the size, frets, neck, action, feel, or other things bug you, you may not get the worth of the better sound.

Yes, working on hollow-bodies makes things a bit more troublesome. If I went to the trouble I'd also change out the entire wiring harness, pots, selector switch and so on too. If this troubles you to consider doing yourself, and you have the money, consider paying someone to do it. Ah! The typical Fender solid body is so easy to swap pickups and associated circuitry on. Part of Leo's genius I think.

No, you may not increase the value of the guitar if you resell it. But with an instrument like this (not a "name brand" much less vintage guitar) you probably won't hurt resale value any either. With the right buyer you might get a bit more for it with the upgrades than if you reverted it to "stock" with the factory pickups, so I wouldn't worry about that.

The cost of the guitar vs the cost of the pickups (or pickups, plus wiring, plus installation) is immaterial. You're looking for an instrument, a music making tool, not a balanced bill of materials. Your loss on resale for a modified instrument is likely greater if you did the swap on a Gibson 335 than on something more generic, so if you want to consider that, it makes more sense to mod a less expensive guitar than one that costs more but derives more of it's value from being "just like it came from the factory."

Some electric guitar players like to go on about how the non-pickup parts impact the sound of an electric guitar. There are some effects from those things, yes, and some can be heard of you're listening for them particularly when played at lower volumes and into a clean amp. The more gain the more effects the less these can be heard even if one is listening for them clinically. Pickups and the amp are well more than 75% of an electric guitar's sound (if one eliminates the tremendous impact of the player). Particularly with humbuckers, I've encountered a great many examples, often in inexpensive guitars, that don't have a sound that interests me. If that's what you got, on a guitar you otherwise like, I'd say: go ahead and do it.

Here's one downside: you may like the pickups you swap in either. I once did the highly popular JB bridge/Jazz neck swap in a Flying V copy. I didn't care for the original pickups, and didn't care for those replacement pickups in that guitar either.

I do like the guitar physically, which is why I'm even considering the upgrade. I'm not worried about the expense of the swap (or guitar resale), so much as whether it's worth the time/trouble to in/out, PLUS, as you note, likely have to "do" the rest of the harness/pots, etc. I could just do the pickups easily by pulling the nearby Vol pots, only, rather than the more challenging stuff, but then I risk being left with the wrong pot values (mine are 500k, while Gibson's with the contemplated pickups are 550k), and/or cap value. If it's likely the swap could overcome the low end factory construction/materials issue, then I'd do it, but if, as you learned with your JB bridge/Jazz neck swap, it's not going to be worth the effort, then I'll skip it. If it wasn't a semi at issue, I wouldn't bother asking, since I can swap those out in 10 minutes.

Frankly, the Ibanez doesn't sound BAD at all, by itself, but when I hear against another, higher-end guitar, it's clear the pickups aren't as articulate at lower volumes. That's why it's more of an "is it worth the effort" thing, for me. I do play at low volume, low distortion, into a clean amp, so the small things may be more apparent, to me, in that context than if I was doing a noisy bar gig.

I've already experimented with the pickup heights. I dropped them to the deck to clean them up, and worked my way back up. I think I've taken that course as far as I can, but thanks for the tip.

My concern is that the lower end semi is made to "look" like a Gibson semi from the outside, but the internals, the wood/braces/construction, etc., that are out of sight are engineered to create a guitar quickly/cheaply, rather than "well." That concern may not be an issue, these days, but it's possibility is what prompts my question.

Thanks for the encouragement, as I'm leaning toward the swap.

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by RoyBoy

There are a boatload of PAF styled pickups out there, each with their positive reviews. I have an Epi 339 and have tried a few different ones, still not floating my boat. With humbuckers in a semi-hollow, I wouldn't think the guitar construction would have much effect on tone. What I have heard lots of times is that classic 57s is what makes those guitars really sing. If I wasn't so totally wrapped up in single coils, I probably would have sprung for them by now.

+1, Gibson 57 Classic pickups are probably the most appreciated of the Gibson pickups. I have a Les Paul and an SG with them.

ChrisN (OP), I think it's worth upgrading with some quality pickups, whether it be Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, etc. You can get excellent pickups new for $100 and no reason not to buy used (just make sure the leads are long enough). Gibson pickups are expensive though as are (naturally) boutique pickups.

I had a couple of guitars with Duncan Designed pickups in them. The guitars sounded good but they sounded better when I upgraded one guitar with EMGs and the other with DiMarzios, which was 15 years ago. I still have both guitars. I also have other guitars with stock epiphone pickups that I upgraded with positive results.

[Bob Womack]

First off, my son and I replaced the Asian pickups in an Epi Flying V with Seymour Duncans (aJB SH-4 for the bridge and a SH-1 59 for the neck) and it made a PROFOUND difference, elevating a cheap-sounding instrument with feedback problems to a fully professional-sounding instrument. YMMV

Second off, I have an ES-335 and an SG with Gibson Classic '57s (the SG has a Classic '57+ in the neck) and they are my favorite pickups, bar none. I'd probably stick with the none "+" version as it it sweeter.

Bob

[Steel and wood]

I was all set on replacing the Seymour Duncan designed humbuckers in my Samick Greg Bennett Royale semi when I got it, however they were so good that it would have been a waste of money replacing them with something not or just as good.

Just like the quality of guitars being made overseas is now pretty awesome, so are the pickups for the most part. (But like others have said, you can swap them out for something else and still end up with a very affordable guitar).

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

First off, my son and I replaced the Asian pickups in an Epi Flying V with Seymour Duncans (aJB SH-4 for the bridge and a SH-1 59 for the neck) and it made a PROFOUND difference, elevating a cheap-sounding instrument with feedback problems to a fully professional-sounding instrument. YMMV

Second off, I have an ES-335 and an SG with Gibson Classic '57s (the SG has a Classic '57+ in the neck) and they are my favorite pickups, bar none. I'd probably stick with the none "+" version as it it sweeter.

Bob

Thanks, Bob. I hear you on the pickup change with a solid guitar - I think those are more about the pickup, and less about the guitar's body (though we can talk into the wee hours about set necks vs bolt-ons 1, 2, + 3 piece bodies, finishes, etc., I know). The semis are at least a little closer to an acoustic than they are to a solid body, and their tone (derived from both the body internal spaces, bracing, glue quality/quantity, etc., and the pickups), I've assumed, depends on how "acousticy" they are.

Just as even I can hear the difference between a $99 Chinese Fender dreadnaught and a $25k Olsen (they both "look" like guitars that should sound similar), I'm wondering if there's a significant difference between the tone, resonance, etc., of my Ibanez and, say, a Collings I-35 LC, when you take the pickups out of the equation. If there is a significant construction/materials-induced difference to the downside (for the Ibanez, I assume), then it seems to me that replacing pickups would offer a lower rate of sonic return on that guitar. At some point, that rate of return wouldn't justify the replacement effort.

Consensus view thus far suggests it's worth the effort. Thanks for the input and the cool pic.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Steel and wood

I was all set on replacing the Seymour Duncan designed humbuckers in my Samick Greg Bennett Royale semi when I got it, however they were so good that it would have been a waste of money replacing them with something not or just as good.

Just like the quality of guitars being made overseas is now pretty awesome, so are the pickups for the most part. (But like others have said, you can swap them out for something else and still end up with a very affordable guitar).

The Ibanez pickups are fine, I think, for someone with a different musical focus. My feeling is Ibanez aimed the ASV10a at a little more blusey, classic rocky target in order to have a broader potential purchasing pool, as the pickups seem a little hot, to me. These are in the 9-10k range, and I find I prefer mid 7k to upper 7k for the quiet low distortion no effects stuff I like to play. I like mini HBs and P90s, lately.

If I replace the pickups, I'd want to get the most out of them, so that got me thinking about the construction differences, whether it'd be worthwhile, etc.

You're right about still having a very reasonably priced guitar at the end of the upgrade.

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

...In your opinion gained from experience, is it ultimately "worth it" to put "nice" pickups in an Asian factory built guitar, or is the improvement from the pickups, even if noticeable, just too limited by the underlying guitar foundation/construction/materials to justify the effort/expense (on a semi-hollow)? In other words, how much does the cheaper construction/materials hold back the perceived improvement from the better pickups? The pickups would cost 3/4 of the guitar's purchase price new...
I've read others say Ibanez semis are overbuilt, dead, etc., which, if true, wouldn't seem to make them good candidates for a pickup upgrade. I don't want to throw good money away, but neither do I want to spend $2500-3500 (or more) or so for the "real thing" 335 (which wouldn't have my preferred neck, output jack) - I can't justify that at my level. Some say pickups make all the difference to any guitar, while others say there's no getting around cheap factory construction/materials - the guitar won't resonate enough to make the pickups worthwhile if it's too heavily built.

Would you try the pickups, at the risk of taking it all apart again if you sell? Live with what came in it and spend the time/energy practicing? Stop trying to make cheap guitars into something they're not, and just "get a good one"?

Here's my response to the other thread:

In 2012 I paid $434 for an Epi Dot Deluxe with a gorgeous flame top and HSC. Immediately replaced the electronics with a vintage wiring kit using the highest quality components ($75) and two Seymour Duncan Antiquity humbuckers ($225). You can't get better electronics IMO. Total invested = $734. Eight years later and this tone machine is still putting a big smile on me every time I play it.

This Epi 335 is some of the best $ I ever spent on a guitar, so yes it was more than worth it to me.

However, before buying the Epiphone 335 I did try the equivalent Ibanez offerings and felt they were stiff and dead sounding (and feeling), so I don't know how upgraded pickups and electronics would have sounded in one of them.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by DukeX

Here's my response to the other thread:

In 2012 I paid $434 for an Epi Dot Deluxe with a gorgeous flame top and HSC. Immediately replaced the electronics with a vintage wiring kit using the highest quality components ($75) and two Seymour Duncan Antiquity humbuckers ($225). You can't get better electronics IMO. Total invested = $734. Eight years later and this tone machine is still putting a big smile on me every time I play it.

This Epi 335 is some of the best $ I ever spent on a guitar, so yes it was more than worth it to me.

However, before buying the Epiphone 335 I did try the equivalent Ibanez offerings and felt they were stiff and dead sounding (and feeling), so I don't know how upgraded pickups and electronics would have sounded in one of them.

I looked at the Epi line (didn't the '12 Deluxe come w/ '57 Classics? http://www.epiphonewiki.org/index/Dot.php#Dot_Deluxe ), but that Slim Taper D neck and I have an uneasy alliance in my Epi 339 P90 (which I otherwise love). The new ones this year are coming with a rounded C, but I'm in "hold" mode, for now.

[RussL30]

I think some of electronics things that guitarist nerd out about make a very small difference, I do think pickups can make a big difference in some guitars.

As far as semi hollow go, I have a MIK Epiphone Sheraton my step father gifted me several years ago that he put in Duncan antiquities and the rest of the electronics are stock. He ended up getting him another one made in the same Korean Samick factory only a couple years newer with stock electronics and pickups.

Mine definitely has the edge when it comes to clean and light break up sounds. The cheaper Epiphone pickups handle higher gain a little better but definitely don’t have the definition and dynamics overall as the expensive antiquities. I really love the antiquities on this guitar, such great pickups.

As far as cheaper pickups, I really like the pickups on the Squier classic vibe series. At least the older MIC ones, haven’t played the newer Indonesian models.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Thanks, Bob. I hear you on the pickup change with a solid guitar - I think those are more about the pickup, and less about the guitar's body (though we can talk into the wee hours about set necks vs bolt-ons 1, 2, + 3 piece bodies, finishes, etc., I know). The semis are at least a little closer to an acoustic than they are to a solid body, and their tone (derived from both the body internal spaces, bracing, glue quality/quantity, etc., and the pickups), I've assumed, depends on how "acousticy" they are.

Just as even I can hear the difference between a $99 Chinese Fender dreadnaught and a $25k Olsen (they both "look" like guitars that should sound similar), I'm wondering if there's a significant difference between the tone, resonance, etc., of my Ibanez and, say, a Collings I-35 LC, when you take the pickups out of the equation. If there is a significant construction/materials-induced difference to the downside (for the Ibanez, I assume), then it seems to me that replacing pickups would offer a lower rate of sonic return on that guitar. At some point, that rate of return wouldn't justify the replacement effort.

Consensus view thus far suggests it's worth the effort. Thanks for the input and the cool pic.

I don't think of most semi-hollowbodies in the ES335 mode as acoustic instruments. The Gibsons they are modeled after are designed more like a very inexpensive acoustic guitar: all laminated, a big ol' wood block in the middle of their acoustic space which is already not anywhere as deep as an acoustic guitar's body. These are electric guitars, designed with some air-space resonance that you may hear personally in a very low volume situation and that will interact with the strings in ways that will survive amplification to some degree, but the whole point of making them laminated, thinline, and with a solid block to mount the bridge and such on is to make them much less of an acoustic instrument,* and what wonderful music has been made on them!

How could I say that there's nothing in the construction or materials of your guitar that a more expensive 335 type, or even another example of your model might not have, but my experience of electric guitars is that such differences are small and pickups (and amps, and player's technique) are huge. If I wanted to "bench race" two 335 like designs and look to things other than electronics that would impact the guitar timbre I'd look to the neck resonance due to size, wood density and type and maybe bridge and tailpiece materials/design. And then if I played a lot of open strings, I'd next look to the nut. But all that is chasing smaller and smaller impacts. Pickups are highly likely to significantly change the sound of the guitar.

.

*After all, the ES335 models came after things like carved sold top large and deep bodied full hollow-bodied guitars, which were designed as acoustic instruments even if pickups were fitted to them.

[rockabilly69]

The answer is yes, changing pickups in am inexpensive instrument can sometimes make a big difference. I've seen it too many times to count so I can answer this question from an experienced viewpoint!