microphone/digital recorder recommendations for around $300

[mc1]

i would like to improve the recordings my acoustic guitar. i already have a computer and a laptop, reaper, and some other odds and ends.

currently i have an older zoom h2 digital recorder, but i find i can't quite get a good enough sound level with it, particularly with quiet sections and long sustained chords. i boost up the levels and get noticeable hiss. perhaps i should spend more time trying to get a better signal, but i have spent a reasonable amount of time with it.

i also have an inexpensive blue snowball usb microphone that i haven't played with too much.

so would like to get slightly higher quality recordings, and i am looking for advice. stereo seems nice, i don't need too many other features, although if i think about it, things like a metronome would be plus.

if i had around $300 to spend, give or take $100 or so, what would you recommend?

some of the options i consider are:

- another digital recorder, such as a newer zoom, or competitor, which hopefully would be an improvement. i like the idea of recording independently of my laptop/computer, and having the flexibility of finding a quiet part of the house without a lot of overhead, but if i will get better sound for my money another way, then i would do that..

- usb microphone. seems like people like the at2020, which is fairly inexpensive (but not the deals up here in canada that is see in the states).

- xlr microphone(s) and preamp/interface to my computer or laptop.

- keep working with the gear i have.

any and all advice is appreciated.

edit: i should add i've been reading the threads here, with fran's and lj's advice, as well as everyone else's, and visited fran's homebrewed music site,all of which is helpful, but i still am not sure what to do.

[indymtb]

I love the quality sound of the h4n. I have both the h2n and the h4n because I thought I lost the h2n. The h4n has great built in mic and supports xlr. I understand you many be gun-shy if you aren't happy with the h2n. I am very happy with the h4n.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by indymtb

I love the quality sound of the h4n. I have both the h2n and the h4n because I thought I lost the h2n. The h4n has great built in mic and supports xlr. I understand you many be gun-shy if you aren't happy with the h2n. I am very happy with the h4n.

i have the even older h2 (no n). i'm not really gun-shy other than i don't want something that is pretty much the same. do you think the h4n with it's built in mics sounds better than the h2n?

i should add i'm happy with the way the h2 sounds, it's just hard for me to get a loud enough signal, so i need something quieter.

[indymtb]

H4n records better. If I were in town, I would make a recording with each. I really think the h4n has richer sound a cross the spectrum and stronger microphones. I haven't hooked up one of my external mics yet. If you go to sweetwater.com, I think there are bunches of reviews on them.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by indymtb

H4n records better. If I were in town, I would make a recording with each. I really think the h4n has richer sound a cross the spectrum and stronger microphones. I haven't hooked up one of my external mics yet. If you go to sweetwater.com, I think there are bunches of reviews on them.

thanks indymtb.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by mc1

i have the even older h2 (no n). i'm not really gun-shy other than i don't want something that is pretty much the same. do you think the h4n with it's built in mics sounds better than the h2n?

i should add i'm happy with the way the h2 sounds, it's just hard for me to get a loud enough signal, so i need something quieter.

The H2 has higher self-noise than the H4n or H2n based on my comparisons.

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-the-zoom-h4n/ compares the H2 to the H4n.

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...-the-zoom-h2n/

and

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...-d50-zoom-h2n/

look at the H2n.

Fran

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

look at the H2n.

Fran

hi fran - i'm so glad you posted. i had previously downloaded one set of your wave files from the field recorder comparisons, and listened, but the difference seemed subtle. i overlooked the h4n first look page/files. i enjoyed your comparison companion video as well. i'll spend some more time listening again.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by mc1

hi fran - i'm so glad you posted. i had previously downloaded one set of your wave files from the field recorder comparisons, and listened, but the difference seemed subtle. i overlooked the h4n first look page/files. i enjoyed your comparison companion video as well. i'll spend some more time listening again.

My advice is to pull down the WAV files and listen to the comparison clips at the fadeout point. Turn up the volume and listen to the noise differences as the notes die away.

Fran

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

My advice is to pull down the WAV files and listen to the comparison clips at the fadeout point. Turn up the volume and listen to the noise differences as the notes die away.

Fran

that's what i was doing, but it seemed a little subtle. maybe i should do a little like you did in the video, bring them into reaper, compare the same sections, and use freeg to check the level.

i'm 100% positive that you are correct, however.

[him]

Ok, this may be a dumb question, but...

Given that you are falling into the noise when you want sustain to ring on, are you pegging (clipping, however tha manifests with your zoom - I'm not familiar with them) in the louder sections too?

If you are not pegging, maybe bring the mic closer? Close enough you aren't cranking the gain and introducing noise that way, but not so close the instrument sounds wrong.

If you are clipping maybe bring it closer anyway and ease up on the dynamic range of your playing?

If those aren't options I would think (and I'm not an expert) you need a much better A/D and preamp or at least a great preamp and compressor/limiter in front of your A/D. Can't do the latter with an all-in-one mic/recorder of course.

Ymmv

[mc1]

Originally Posted by him

Ok, this may be a dumb question, but...

Given that you are falling into the noise when you want sustain to ring on, are you pegging (clipping, however tha manifests with your zoom - I'm not familiar with them) in the louder sections too?

If you are not pegging, maybe bring the mic closer? Close enough you aren't cranking the gain and introducing noise that way, but not so close the instrument sounds wrong.

If you are clipping maybe bring it closer anyway and ease up on the dynamic range of your playing?

If those aren't options I would think (and I'm not an expert) you need a much better A/D and preamp or at least a great preamp and compressor/limiter in front of your A/D. Can't do the latter with an all-in-one mic/recorder of course.

Ymmv

him, i'm not clipping at all, but i now have the recorder about 5 inches from the guitar, basically at the 12-14th fret area, angled slightly toward the body. it already feels a little bit cramped, and i can't really get it much closer without risk of bumping it.

[him]

Oh. That's closer than I could do. I would be having massive volume issues just from distance changes and inverse square wahuh.

The h2 isn't running some sort of auto gain control is it?

[mc1]

one might think so, but i'm pretty sure that isn't the case. the h2 has a switch to cut/normal/boost the signal, but it's set to not cut or boost. it's also not cut in the digital realm.

i play with my fingertips and not too loudly, but reasonably so, although my volume must be on the low end for guitarists. much quieter than if i grabbed a pick and strummed hard.

fran (who totally knows what he is doing) had some clips of the older h2 and the newer h2n on his website. i think the noise levels were quite comparable to what i am getting.

i pulled his simultaneously recorded, level-matched samples into reaper and listened to the very end, which basically recorded dead air, the the h2n was quieter. still some noise, but not quite as much. i tried to get some numbers using the sonalksis free g plugin, but that wasn't quite working for me. with the js: schwa/audio analyzer it appeared that the h2 was about 2 dBs louder than the h2n.

[him]

I listened to those - they reminded me of listening to an Aqualung CD.

I don't know if I would pay for an upgrade to the Zoom for the difference I heard. It is good for what it is, no more.

I have a suggestion that might get you to a good starting point (room to grow, yeah, you'll have plenty) in a slightly unconventional way.

Presonus USB or a competitor. I don't know this part of the equation well but find something with 2 ins and goodish (they won't be very good but do what you can) preamps. $200ish.

Two mic cables, at least $20 for the pair.

You need a way to support two mics independently. Ideally you want a choice of X/Y or one above the 12th fret, one above the bridge. You may be close already here and may be able to lash somehing up DIY style so I'm not counting this in the price, but it is important.

Now... a pair of behringer emc8000 mics at about $55/ea.

You will be in the $300 +/- 50 range at this point, depending on what you spent for the interface. A bit more maybe if you needed a mic stand. That set-up should beat the Zoom in every way. You will need to figure out mic placements that work of course but you'll be in control there.


Emc8000s are usually used as measurement mics, e.g. in conjunction with acoustic analysis software when doing pro audio/tuning a sound system to a hall. They are omni, flat, colorless, and fit in your budget. Not the best mics in the world but I suspect they are a LOT better than any built-in mics in a hand-held recorder. They aren't (IMO) a waste of money, unlike most of what is in you budget. I used to use one years ago as a backup for an earthworks m30 (10 times more expensive mic) when doing the aforementioned analysis/setups and it worked. They are also good for recording in some cases. Down side, and the reason you may end up really frustrated with this... they have self noise of their own, inherent in the design. I suspect you'll have more room to tame it with this set-up. All the alternatives I can think of will be a lot more expensive...but at least if you go down this road you'll be able to try alternatives for the price of mics. Yeah, kinda weak. Sigh.

Downside: omni mics can be a pain depending on your room.

For the record: while I have used the mic in question, for instrument recording even, I have not used/do not own the exact set-up I describe so YMMV and I might be totally wrong and all that. I don't know how else you would stay in budget though, without going used and it's buyer beware there too.

[mc1]

thanks him, i appreciate the advice. i'll check out that stuff. i really like the idea of grabbing a stand alone recorder and finding a quiet place inside (or outside) of the house and setting up quickly. i don't have any dedicated space to record, so i would need to setup (and remove) quite a bit of stuff if i go the laptop->preamp->mics route. but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.