Trying over the shoulder technique

dcn · #1 09-25-2022, 07:42 AM

Hello recording fiends!

Yesterday I recorded an original tune of mine called "The Winder" using the "over-the-shoulder" technique.

The shoulder mic is actually not in the shot, but it was close to my right shoulder, as the name implies. I like the width, though there are likely still some phase issues.

The setup here is Halland 000 / Soyuz 013 FET pair / LaChappell 983s / Apogee Symphony Desktop / Logic Pro. There are no effects or processing.

And yes, this signal chain implies that if something doesn't sound good it's all my fault.

Last, but not least, be sure to enjoy with headphones or real speakers.

runamuck · #2 09-25-2022, 08:09 AM

Beautiful playing and great sounding guitar - the two most important things for a good recording.

KevWind · #3 09-25-2022, 08:15 AM

Sounds great I know one pro engineer in Nashville who swears by the over the shoulder and 14 fret pair for acoustic guitar

rick-slo · #4 09-25-2022, 08:39 AM

Sounds very good. Warm tone and clear intimate sound.

Wound not worry about phase "issues" independently in a theroretically way. Just what do you hear. Lessening the background noise would be a good goal.

I started a thread a number of years ago on "over the shoulder mic'ing you might what to check out:
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=265641

dcn · #5 09-25-2022, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runamuck

Beautiful playing and great sounding guitar - the two most important things for a good recording.

Thanks for the kind words!

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevWind

Sounds great I know one pro engineer in Nashville who swears by the over the shoulder and 14 fret pair for acoustic guitar

Thanks, Kev - you know I first saw it on the HendyAmps YouTube channel when they did a video about different acoustic guitar mic techniques.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Sounds very good. Warm tone and clear intimate sound.

Wound not worry about phase "issues" independently in a theroretically way. Just what do you hear. Lessening the background noise would be a good goal.

I started a thread a number of years ago on "over the shoulder mic'ing you might what to check out:
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=265641

Thanks, Derek! I will definitely take a look - and solid call about the background noise. My neighborhood is pretty noisy, so ideally recording should take place on Sundays - but yesterday I just could not resist.

rick-slo · #6 09-25-2022, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcn

Thanks, Derek! I will definitely take a look - and solid call about the background noise. My neighborhood is pretty noisy, so ideally recording should take place on Sundays - but yesterday I just could not resist.

I was talking about the steady noise before you playing starts. Could be fan noise (computer or home) or possibly some recording gear component. It's a
small issue in the total picture but worth looking into if an easy enough fix.

Doug Young · #7 09-25-2022, 02:29 PM

That's really nice, very good playing, good sound. I've never had much luck with this placement, but hearing this, I should give it another try!

I'm with Rick on "phase issues", people worry too much about this for solo guitar - if it sounds good, for the most part, you're fine. But on a lark, I took a closer look. I expected things to be at least somewhat out of phase with the mics pointed this way, but actually your phase correlation is very good, hovering around 80% most of the time, perfectly acceptable for solo guitar. Wide, but not too wide.

In any case, other than the room/fan noise or whatever it is, nice recording!

dcn · #8 09-25-2022, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

That's really nice, very good playing, good sound. I've never had much luck with this placement, but hearing this, I should give it another try!

I'm with Rick on "phase issues", people worry too much about this for solo guitar - if it sounds good, for the most part, you're fine. But on a lark, I took a closer look. I expected things to be at least somewhat out of phase with the mics pointed this way, but actually your phase correlation is very good, hovering around 80% most of the time, perfectly acceptable for solo guitar. Wide, but not too wide.

In any case, other than the room/fan noise or whatever it is, nice recording!

Thanks so much for the kind words and input, Doug - means a lot. Per your and Derek's suggestion, I will figure out where the background noise is coming from and see if I can suppress it.

Rick Shepherd · #9 09-25-2022, 05:14 PM

Hey dcn,

I am curious, are your mic tracks panned hard left to right? I was playing around with this method of mic placement today. If my placement is just right, I get a pretty good result, without much difference between the two tracks. The right mic isn’t really directly over my shoulder, it is a bit forward, and I lower it until the signal matches the left mic. I also have to be a bit careful where to place the left microphone in order to keep a balance between the two signals. Sometimes I will pan each one to taste , yet still maintain a good stereo image.

Thanks for sharing!

Rick

dcn · #10 09-25-2022, 07:13 PM

Hi Rick - that's correct, they are panned hard left and hard right. I didn't want to add one more variable (pan) beyond mic placement so I kept it simple.

All the best,

Diogo

DupleMeter · #11 09-25-2022, 07:50 PM

It's a really nice recording.

My only nitpick is that the left side is decidedly hotter, pulling the balance of the image noticeably off center.

I get what you're saying about the phase issues. There is a noticeable tonal difference when folding down to mono. Delaying that shoulder mic to align with the farther mic might help that...but it might not. You are getting sound at 2 different phase relationships in this setup (the shoulder mic is 90º-ish off from the front mic). You might just have to accept that it isn't going to be super mono compatible. Certain techniques (when coupled with the front mic) are just going to always have some phase issues. This is one of them, and the "sunrise" technique is another.

Rick Shepherd · #12 09-25-2022, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

It's a really nice recording.

My only nitpick is that the left side is decidedly hotter, pulling the balance of the image noticeably off center.

Yeah, I noticed this as well. As I was explaining, mic placement is very important with this technique. It helps to use headphones for positioning.

Rick

Doug Young · #13 09-25-2022, 10:23 PM

I think this was actually the issue I struggled with when I tried this technique. The image always seemed to pull to one side, even if levels were theoretically balanced.

jim1960 · #14 09-25-2022, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think this was actually the issue I struggled with when I tried this technique. The image always seemed to pull to one side, even if levels were theoretically balanced.

What I've seen/read about people doing is to use a SDC spaced pair as usual and then blend the over-the-shoulder mic in with that. I'm assuming they let the spaced pair create the stereo and had the shoulder mic down the middle to sort of beef things up. It's not something I've ever tried myself so I'm guessing at how they used the three tracks. I'm not sure how else it might work though,.

rick-slo · #15 09-25-2022, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think this was actually the issue I struggled with when I tried this technique. The image always seemed to pull to one side, even if levels were theoretically balanced.

With the left mike on the body and the right mike over the shoulder the lower frequencies especially tend to be pulled to the left.
Someday I might try a recording with the mike positions swapped.