24v Supplied vs 48v Phantom Power Requirement

[gmel555]

Fishman Artist provides 24v Phantom power. Condenser mics I have state a requirement of 48v Phantom. Are these mics incompatible with the Fishman? I mostly use dynamic mics w-the Fishman, but am preparing to experiment recording with condensors using the Fishman's pre/effects/etc. running out of the XLR "Mix DI Output". (I seem to recall reading that 48v mics may not function optimally at lower voltages.)

[DupleMeter]

No, that won't work. Depending on the mic, it may polarize the element enough to get sound, but it will be with a much higher noise floor & much lower sensitivity.

You shouldn't damage a condenser mic by under powering, but if it's an older mic it could be sensitive to voltage fluctuation & be damaged.

[Doug Young]

it really depends on the mic - but 48 is definitely a better idea. Apparently the official spec for phantom isn't all that clear, and leaves room for other voltages. I recall some amp manufacturer who provides 24 volts arguing a few years back that 24 volts was "correct" and all the 48 volt systems were wrong - which seemed like tilting at windmills at best, and just plain incorrect at worst. And yet amp makers continue to do it...

But around that time, I tried an experiment and undoubtedly posted it here, where I tried a KM184 with a Zoom recorder which offers a choice of 48, 24 and 9 (or 12?, I forget). In that case, with that mic, what I recall was no audible difference between 48 and 24 (at least just recording acoustic guitar), but there was a noticeable loss of quality at the lowest voltage.

I seem to recall trying something else with 24 volts recently, and it simply didn't work.

[Bob Womack]

Just buy one.



On sale, $28.64 at SWEETWATER.

Bob

[gmel555]

Thx to all for replies and the consistent answers. Bob, I have a couple stand alone pre's which will supply 48v, just trying to keep the signal chain as simple as possible. The pak you suggest or something similar sounds like my best option for that if I want to use the condensers w/the Artist. Thx again to all. (PS: maybe it's just me, but pretty much any condenser I've ever considered buying in the past 25 years needed 48v and until now had only used the Artist for live performance w dynamics, so never questioned its 24v supply until now....live and learn.)

[dnf777]

Kind of what Doug said, I called Fishman and asked them about this. A technician essentially told me what Doug said. (that they said). Any decent mic will work at 24v. I thought that sounded dubious, but so far, all my mics seem to work. would they sound better at 48v? Dont know. But I find it odd that such a well-known company would make a unit not compatible with many well-known mics.

[sdelsolray]

The international phantom power standards are found in IEC 61938:2018. Basically, it is:

1) A three wire configuration;

2) Voltages of 12 v, 24v or 48v; and

3) Maximum current of 10 mA.

[ChuckS]

To really know what the effect might be when the phantom voltage is lower you need to know the architecture of the mic.

If the mic has a permanently polarized capsule (i.e. electret) then the phantom voltage is only used for the mic's internal preamp. There is a high likelihood that this circuit can work over a wide range of input voltage.

If the phantom voltage is used to polarize the capsule, then there are also variables in that part of the design. Some mics may boost the phantom power to a higher voltage, such as 60V, 80, or even up to 200V to polarize the capsule. The voltage boost circuits may not be designed to work at less than 48V input. For any given capsule capacitance, as its polarization voltage is increased its signal output level will increase (for the same SPL of input signal).

So, read the microphone specification to find out the acceptable voltage range for its phantom power input.

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Kind of what Doug said, I called Fishman and asked them about this. A technician essentially told me what Doug said. (that they said). Any decent mic will work at 24v. I thought that sounded dubious, but so far, all my mics seem to work. would they sound better at 48v? Dont know. But I find it odd that such a well-known company would make a unit not compatible with many well-known mics.

Well...I can believe some 48v mics might work but I can report that my Gefell M930 (a very decent mic) cut in & out with 24v. It continues to work fine with the same cable and a 48V pre. I am dubious -as are you- on Fishman's claim.

[KevWind]

I may just be being negative or suspicious But it almost sounds to me like Fishman is just trying to cover up for what appears to a fundamental design concept blunder. I'm not a circuit or amp designer by any stretch, but it is my understanding that the mic will draw the phantom voltage it needs from what is available so if say that is only 24 from 48 available thats what it will draw (no harm no foul) So if that is the case,,, then to me it seems like an oversight with no functional reason, to not have just designed the circuit to be 48v