Scale: how small is "small"?

[bellgamin]

This might be a short thread because I have a simple question that everyone seems to know the answer except me.

Namely, as pertains to scale length: how big is "big" and how small is "small" and what size is "normal"?

[justonwo]

I think when people say “long scale,” they are usually referring to the 25.4” Martin standard. When they say “short scale,” that’s typically 24.9” for a Martin. Gibsons tend to be at 24.75”.

I think that brackets the “normal” range, with the exception that many luthiers use as much as 25.6”. You don’t see a lot outside that range. Within that range, there is no “normal.” They’re all common.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by bellgamin

This might be a short thread because I have a simple question that everyone seems to know the answer except me.

Namely, as pertains to scale length: how big is "big" and how small is "small" and what size is "normal"?

Hi bg

Don't confuse scale length with body size. There can be small bodied guitars with standard length scale, and scaled down guitars with a unique scale. That said, there are common scales.

On a normal-sized steel string guitar, normal scale is 25.4" or 25.5" (depending on the builder) and short scale is 24-24.8" though those sometimes vary too. So 26" would be long-scale, 25.5" normal, 24.8" or less…short scale. I own a fanned fret where the low E (bass) is 25.5" and the high e (treble) is 25" and the other strings scaled mathematically to coincide with these limits.

Nylon string guitars (traditional classical) scale length is measured in mm and is customarily 660mm or 25.98 inches (or a bit more/less). There are a lot of student sized classical guitars with shorter scale.

And on electric guitars, Gibson were mostly short scale and Fender normal scale. The somewhat common fanned fret in the modern era was made popular when Buzz Feiten combined the ELECTRIC fender scale of 25.5" with a Gibson ELECTRIC scale of 24.75" so the bass string was longer, and the treble shorter and strings 2-3-4-5 had individual lengths of custom scaling.

Today there are fanned fret guitars built with over 2" offsets in scale, and some built with as little as .25 inch offset.

Scale is not governed, regulated, or licensed (though it was copyrighted, licensed and patented by Buzz Feiten at one time).

Today's 'normal' or 'standard' scale lengths are what have evolved in the industry.

I've played parlors with sub 24" scale, and baritone with 27-30" scale.

Hope this has made it plain…(ha)

[Nick S]

When I was in High School, the rumor was that Buzzy Feiten could jam for 2 1/2 hours without repeating a lick. Also loved his playing with Stevie Wonder. (Nothing about scale length.)

[Methos1979]

Full or long scale for me is anything over 25. As LJ said, Martin sort of set the bar with their 25.4" normal scale (frequently called long or full) and 24.9" as short scale. I've played Gibsons and Santa Cruz guitars at 24.75" and I've now got two custom Emeralds at 24.6". I really like that scale. Once I get down to 24" and lower that starts to seem too short. The frets down near the body of the guitar start to get really crowded for me, not that I play there all that much.

[Bob Womack]

Then there's me.

In my word, "overblown scale," "ugly, makes my fingers hurt scale," or "bends are twice as hard scale," is anything over 25". Of course, 24.75" is "normal scale" on my planet. Or maybe "loovely scale," "perfect scale," etc.



Bob

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Then there's me.

In my word, "overblown scale," "ugly, makes my fingers hurt scale," or "bends are twice as hard scale," is anything over 25". Of course, 24.75" is "normal scale" on my planet. Or maybe "loovely scale," "perfect scale," etc.



Bob

One of my favourite and easiest to play guitars is a small bodied 12 fret slothead, with a scale length of 26 1/2 inches and a 1 7/8 nut. I find anything below 25.4 very cramped, and I have average sized hands.
Just shows how different we all are.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Nick S

When I was in High School, the rumor was that Buzzy Feiten could jam for 2 1/2 hours without repeating a lick. Also loved his playing with Stevie Wonder. (Nothing about scale length.)

Hi Nick,
Very good!

I assume you grew up in Syosset or Jericho, yes?

HE

[Nick S]

Hello Howard.
Westchester.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi,

"Long scale" is anything over the normal scales used and rarely used apart from on Baritone guitar. It means over 25.5"

For flat tops Martin and Gibson have established the standards :

Martin standard scale is 25.4" (Collings is 25.5") It is used on dreads, and OM guitars and (since 1902) on 12 fret 000 guitars.

Short scale (Martin) is 24.9" used on 14 fret 000 (can't think why) and smaller 12 fret guitars.

Gibson scales are 24.75 on jumbos and super jumbos, but on the advanced jumbo it is 25.5".

edit: Early small bodied flattop Gibsons (like the L-0 andL-1 etc.) were, I believe 24.25"

My acoustic archtops are all 25"

See this to really confuse you !

[raysachs]

To me, anything from about 24.75 (Gibson’s “normal”) to 25.5 (Basically Fender and Martin “normal”) feels like a regular scale guitar. Anything 24” and shorter feels pretty short to me. I have two electrics at 25.5 and one at 24.75, and two acoustics, one at 25.5 and one at 24. The 24” acoustic feels notably (and wonderfully) short - I love it. All of the others feel like regular length - I love those too... I don’t think I’ve ever played anything shorter than about 23.8 which, not surprisingly, felt just like 24. 24 is short enough for me not to want anything shorter - it already feels really crowded with a capo above the second fret or so...

-Ray

[iim7V7IM7]

People seem to have the topic well covered...

Basically, normality in the range of scale lengths has been established over the years by the large, historic manufacturers of acoustic instruments (i.e. Gibson and Martin).

• Gibson: 24.75" and 25.5"
• Martin: 24.9" and 25.4"

Yes, there are guitars with much longer scales (gypsy guitars, multi-scale altered tuned instruments, some classical guitars etc.) and some very short scale instruments as well (Gibson Birdland, Tenors etc.) but when most guitarists refer to long-scale it is usually within the context of the historic builder specifications in my opinion (e.g. 24.75/24.9 = short scale and 25.4"/25.5" = long scale).

[bellgamin]

What makes it difficult is the inconsistency among guitar makers. For instance, a Teton STG150CENT is called a Grand Concert (00) but its scale is 25.51" (648mm). By the way, I wonder why many US sellers persist in using metric dimensions for their guitars. Hmmm?

[printer2]

I think 21-22" as short. Long ranges from 24-25.5".

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by bellgamin

What makes it difficult is the inconsistency among guitar makers. For instance, a Teton STG150CENT is called a Grand Concert (00) but its scale is 25.51" (648mm). By the way, I wonder why many US sellers persist in using metric dimensions for their guitars. Hmmm?

Hi bg

I don't care whether builders use metric or imperial measure as long as they get the math correct. And I don't find many sellers who ONLY express measurements in mm (except in the classical guitar realm).