Some questions!

[Melt in the Sun]

Hi gang, just joined up here to talk about a carbon-fiber acoustic.

I have and love a 2002 Taylor 510 (engelmann/mahogany) that I bought new after a long search. I played it a lot, for a lot of years.

Now, it stays in its case because A) Arizona, and B) I have 3 uncoordinated and enthusiastic young children. I don't have tons of time to play at the moment, but when I do I yank an electric off the wall because it's easy and nobody can break it. When I do take the Taylor out, I'm painfully aware that one stumble+headbutt will be the end of it. Add to that the annoyance of 15+ years of religious humidifying...and here I am.

I played a few Rainsongs over the weekend and liked the CH-OM and CH-WS, and those (new) are roughly in the range that my Taylor is worth. There are no Composite Acoustics dealers in town, and to play an Emerald is unlikely (and probably too expensive anyway). I have a sort-of strict one-in-one-out policy...well, I don't have any duplicates.

I've read enough to get that CF guitars are completely impervious to climate...which sounds awesome.
- How about against bumps and bruises? Certainly more durable than a 1/8" piece of spruce, but has anyone managed to break one? Dropped one and had it survive?
- I assume they're all un-repairable poly finishes (which is OK with me); is that correct?
- Composite Acoustics refuses to use truss rods. Seems like a bad idea to me...what you y'all with experience think? Anybody have issues with string gauge changes or long-term potential issues with creep?
- When playing the Rainsongs I noticed a huge difference in sound if I was playing it vs. someone else, especially models with an offset soundhole. For folks with an Emerald/Cargo/etc., do you notice the same thing or am I just insane?
- am I crazy for considering this side-grade from Taylor? Maybe the wrong group to ask that question...

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Melt in the Sun

- am I crazy for considering this side-grade from Taylor? Maybe the wrong group to ask that question...

Not at all. When I was shopping, a Taylor was on my radar. I went so far as to get a Composite Acoustics GX and take it into Guitar Center to do a side-by-side comparison with an 814ce. They actually played very similarly (neck width/profile) and while of course they sounded different, it was more a matter of opinion as to which was "better". I ended up with the GX but I am definitely think "side-grade" might be a good description.

[Captain Jim]

Welcome aboard, Melt. You are here for the same reasons that brought many of us to consider carbon fiber... well, no small kids for me, but traveling through various climates (including some time in Arid-zona every year, because our daughter lives there). Like you, I was (still am) a Taylor fan. I have several Taylors that don't get much time outside their cases because of the humidity (or lack thereof). Well, for full disclosure, our home in south coastal Texas is pretty climate stable, even though the outside is generally quite humid.

The first carbon fiber guitar I bought was a RainSong, specifically because it reminded me of a Taylor Grand Concert in size and style. Different sound from my 522ce 12-fret, but the general feel of it is quite the same.

Since you are used to the size and sound of a 510, I would think you are on the right track with the guitars you are currently checking out. Yes, the tones sound quite different to the player, depending on that offset soundhole... I feel those give great player feedback to what anyone in front of the guitar is hearing. 3 Emeralds, all with the offset soundhole, and I don't see any way I'd go back to a traditional center soundhole guitar.

If you do look into Emerald, I find the X20 is the "Swiss Army Knife" of their line like the Grand Auditorium line is to Taylor. I think an X30 would give you that BIG sound you like, with better ergonomics than a dreadnought.

I find the RainSongs have a crisp piano-like sound, and certainly differences between the various sizes and models. They are the brand you are most likely to find in a guitar shop. Emeralds are purchased direct from the makers in Ireland, unless you can find something used. Since the X30 was just released about 6 months ago, probably not much of a chance to find one used currently. The other brands are probably somewhere in between, with fewer dealers than RainSong.

As far as the "toughness" of CF, they are not indestructible - I recall someone on here who managed to get one run over with a car... it wasn't pretty. Certainly tougher than most wood guitars, but if your kids were to play "El Kabong" with it, besides some stitches for them, there may be some damage to the guitar. I haven't done a "drop test" on any of mine, but they have traveled with us, generally in a gig bag, by boat and RV for thousands of miles, through all kinds of climates, with no issues.

For full disclosure, I like the sound of the Taylors I still have. I like the sound of my carbon fiber guitars just as much... maybe even a bit more. My all-around favorite acoustic sound is the Emerald X20.

Good luck with this just-looking stuff. Like many, I came for the ease of care of carbon fiber and stayed for the great tone.

Stick around here - there are a lot of knowledgeable players on this sub-forum, and I would venture that most of us were where you are currently as far as "carbon fiber curious."

[Earl49]

I used to live in Alaska, where winter time RH in the house is like yours there in Arizona - a constant struggle to get UP to 20% indoors. That prompted my initial interest in CF guitars and I bought a Rainsong WS-1000 in 2001. it was the only guitar that could remain out handy. I don't have the damage risks of small children or large dogs, so mine live on wall hangers or Hercules floor stands.

To your questions:
- They would be more durable to bumps and bruises, but I've never tested that personally. The only CF guitar I recall being destroyed was a member here who backed the car over his Lucky 13 during a camping trip.
- Repairs would be challenging at best. Assume a seriously damaged CF guitar is a throw-away / total loss. The curing process for CF is not repair-friendly, nor is the clear-coat.
- Some of my CF guitars have truss rods, and some don't. I've never felt the need to adjust neck relief, even with major changes of tunings or upping the string gauge.
- Having a truss rod is mostly a psychological comfort issue for the owner, IMO. You can change the relief if needed, but changes are usually not necessary based on my experience. Some folks will disagree, of course.
- The offset sound hole gives a different sound to the player. It can act like a stage monitor, letting you hear approximately what the audience hears. A center sound hole tends to focus or aim the sound outward, so player perspective on tone is different.

As for a sideways move, I have several nice Taylor's too, and I am actively converting over to all CF. I'm tired of the worry factor and humidity care, even as much as I love fine wood instruments. I will keep my two koa Taylor guitars, but everything else will go - as the opportunities present. For koa, I'm willing to keep the hassle of humidity care.

I visited that shop in Tucson in late October, and probably played the same RS guitars that you tried. As I recall there was a marine blue burst OM and a copper colored APSE. They said that more were expected soon, too. I wasn't actively shopping, but always test drive when I can. It would take something really special to beat out my Emerald X20, FWIW. Love the tone, love the ergonomic comfort.

[Melt in the Sun]

Thanks for the welcome all!

Originally Posted by Earl49

I visited that shop in Tucson in late October, and probably played the same RS guitars that you tried. As I recall there was a marine blue burst OM and a copper colored APSE. They said that more were expected soon, too. I wasn't actively shopping, but always test drive when I can. It would take something really special to beat out my Emerald X20, FWIW. Love the tone, love the ergonomic comfort.

Yes - I stopped in at Rainbow with my dad, who was seriously shopping and bought a PRS SE Angelus, a stunning guitar for its price (but wooden ).

They had the Rainsong APSE which I liked. I honestly couldn't tell it from the CH-OM with my eyes closed, so the higher price makes no sense for me.

Aside from being horribly ugly (IMO, of course) the aquamarine burst sounded TERRIBLE when my dad played and I stood in front of it - honky and one-dimensional. Sounded really nice in my lap...I was shocked to hear the difference. That's the guitar that prompted the question - are the offset soundholes designed to sound great to the player but screw the audience?

They also had a copper burst dreadnought, H-DR1000 maybe? I didn't care for it...loose and boomy, somehow awkward sounding.

I'd love to play an X20. Maybe if I'm patient...but really all the Emeralds are more than I'm prepared to spend right now.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Melt in the Sun

I've read enough to get that CF guitars are completely impervious to climate...which sounds awesome.
- How about against bumps and bruises? Certainly more durable than a 1/8" piece of spruce, but has anyone managed to break one? Dropped one and had it survive?
- I assume they're all un-repairable poly finishes (which is OK with me); is that correct?
- Composite Acoustics refuses to use truss rods. Seems like a bad idea to me...what you y'all with experience think? Anybody have issues with string gauge changes or long-term potential issues with creep?
- When playing the Rainsongs I noticed a huge difference in sound if I was playing it vs. someone else, especially models with an offset soundhole. For folks with an Emerald/Cargo/etc., do you notice the same thing or am I just insane?
- am I crazy for considering this side-grade from Taylor? Maybe the wrong group to ask that question...

It is much harder to ding any CF guitar than a soft wood top. My gigging guitar blew off a chair onto a concrete floor (I foolishly left it leaned against the chair back) and there are no marks on it anywhere. It has been to maybe 75 gigs at this point and unlike my partner's wood guitars I defy you to find any scar. All that said you can still do damage if you try hard enough.

CF guitars are mostly finished in poly like your Taylor.

My first choice to replace a 510, to my ear, would be a RainSong H-DR1100N2. It is a bit more expensive than the CH series, but is the closest in tone and feel to a wood dreadnought. Also, no offset sound hole.

I sold my last wood guitar, a Martin D-45V on eBay in 2007.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Melt in the Sun

They had the Rainsong APSE which I liked. I honestly couldn't tell it from the CH-OM with my eyes closed, so the higher price makes no sense for me.

Aside from being horribly ugly (IMO, of course) the aquamarine burst sounded TERRIBLE when I stood in front of my dad playing it - honky and one-dimensional. Sounded really nice in my lap...I was shocked to hear the difference. That's the guitar that prompted the question - are the offset soundholes designed to sound great to the player but screw the audience?

They also had a copper burst dreadnought, H-DR1000 maybe? I didn't care for it...loose and boomy, somehow awkward sounding.

I'd love to play an X20. Maybe if I'm patient...but really all the Emeralds are more than I'm prepared to spend right now.

I believe that the APSE is an H-OM with a 12 fret NS neck, so it would not sound or feel much different. I too am not a fan of the marine burst visually. Copper burst is OK if you HAVE to paint the body.......

Offset sound holes are different in the Rainsong line (1005 model numbers) than in the Emeralds. The hole in the upper bout of the Rainsong is still in the top, rather than on the corner, and is smaller and round. I would say the offset hole there for both audience and player, not at the expense of one over another. In theory, an offset sound hole means not interrupting the center of the sound board or its bracing. But Rainsong does not have any top bracing to interrupt.

The RS dreads are big / boomy sounding guitars. It is not the tone choice for everyone. If you have to play a dread I would prefer the standard DR-1000 weave (more expensive). I don't play dreads myself anymore (shoulder issues) so I probably didn't even try that one. There is forum member or two located in Phoenix who might be able to let you try their X20. I don't know of any in Tucson.

[jdinco]

I don't think the offset screws the audience at all, when I had a friend play my Emerald X7 for me, I was impressed with how much better it sounded out front than from the players position. Which sounded fine to me. There is tonal differences when CF is compared to wood....maybe your ears need a bit more time to adjust to those ??? I have a couple wood guitars I plan on keeping but being in AZ also, the X20 and Cargo get most of the play. I love them all. Best of luck with your search !

[BT55]

I own numerous wood guitars and a couple of CF's. IMHO I prefer the tone of wood vs CF. That being said playability is the same. My Rainsongs truss rod is for appearance only as opposed to my X20 whose truss rod works the same as any wood guitar. In the winter only my CF guitars leave the house my wood guitars are snuggled up in my warm humidified man cave.

[kramster]

Maybe make a wrong turn... drive 120 miles or so and check out some CF (and an Ekoa) guitars in the lil town North of you known as the State Capitol. Just suggesting'.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by BT55

I own numerous wood guitars and a couple of CF's. IMHO I prefer the tone of wood vs CF.

Composite Acoustics doesn't get as much love here as Rainsong and Emerald, but from my experience and what I've ready from others, they have the warmest, woodiest sound--not as piano-like or "chime-ey" as some other CF makers. They do tend to be harder to find, though, and the full-depth GX and Legacy models tend to be at the upper end of the CF price range.

Melt;

What Kramster is telling you (in Kramsterspeak) is that he has almost every CF guitar ever made and is willing to host a visit for new explorers. You can PM him and you'll find that he is very gracious in sharing his fine collection. I don't think you'll find a better collection anywhere.

[Melt in the Sun]

Originally Posted by kramster

Maybe make a wrong turn...

That's an incredibly generous offer! Not sure when I can get up there...maybe sometime in January. I'll send you a PM...

[Melt in the Sun]

This is the old X7 in this video...right? The X20 sounds different but on par with his two Taylors, but the X7 sounds like a toy in comparison.

Apples and oranges I know! Put it against the Baby Taylor and the Martin LX1 and I'm sure it would compare better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBBOKvnfqHg

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Melt in the Sun

This is the old X7 in this video...right? The X20 sounds different but on par with his two Taylors, but the X7 sounds like a toy in comparison.

Apples and oranges I know! Put it against the Baby Taylor and the Martin LX1 and I'm sure it would compare better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBBOKvnfqHg

Yes, that is the previous version of the X7. While YouTube videos can vary all over the place, my experience with my guitars is quite different from what I hear on that video.

I have a Taylor GSmini and an X7 - no comparison, the X7 sounds much better than the GSmini (spruce top) and better projection. In that video, I would almost give the nod to the GSmini for all but strumming. The X7 in the video, indeed, sounds thin. It is a small guitar, but mine sure sounds better than that one in the video.

Also in the video, the X20 seems to be weak on the bass - again, not the case with mine. I have a Taylor 814ce and a Taylor 522ce 12-fret, and the X20 sounds fuller and richer than either of those, although the 814 and the X20 are close.

Judging by the sound from the video, I am surprised that he prefers the X20. Although in real life, I get it.

Earl49 has been talking about another carbon fiber gathering in February, assuming coordination with Kramster. I was at the one in Feb of this year, and there was a delightful variety of CF guitars to play... and Kramster has added even more this year. Just something to consider as that time gets closer. I know I will be excited to see, hear, and play the new stuff if the gathering happens.