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  #16  
Old 11-25-2018, 08:19 AM
paulp1960 paulp1960 is offline
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If an amp has an analog to digital convertor as the first stage of the amp then it is a modelling amp. From that point onwards the signal is just a stream of digits that the DSP works on to "model" the sound mathematically.

In that regard the Katana is most certainly a modelling amp, for better or worse.

My own view is that modelling amps are too good to ignore though personally I never found the Youtube videos of the Katana sounded convincing enough to me.

I quite like my 25 watt Marshall Code 25 modelling amp and I like my Scuffham S-Gear plugin even more. But I have a Fender champ clone kit that I hope to build shortly to give me an all-tube option as well. Best of both worlds, why not?
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  #17  
Old 11-25-2018, 09:24 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Originally Posted by rwmct View Post
To me, each amp should have its own signature sound. If you want that sound, you get one of those amps.

I feel the same way about guitars.
I'm near the start of my journey and have hardly any experience with amps, other than YT vids. Tube amps sound great, but they're expensive to buy and maintain, plus they can have noise, tube rattles, and other quirks you don't anticipate on the way in. Plus, tube amps come in a variety of flavors, some of which favor different pickups (fender/single coils, marshall/vox for HBs - I own both types, so at least 2 tube amps?), while others emulate points in time (50s vs 60s vs 70s, etc.). Within those categories dwell even more sub-categories (eg Bassman's darker tone within the fender group), not to mention the quagmire of potential Russian NOS tube combinations to be tried. The possibilities are almost infinite, even without custom makers' entries, and that's all before you get to the limitless outerspace of pedals (a form of electronic/digital modeling?). No, without some guidance/experience, this world is as overwhelming as it is expensive. To own the amps/pedals necessary to create the sounds of my heroes would exceed my available space and financial wherewithal, and then, since they all used variations on these themes, I'd be forever chasing more gear.

These are the reasons I bought my cheapo Fender Mustang 2, and why I'd consider a Katana or other modeler. While likely not completely accurate as to any particular amp type/model, and while I do appreciate a good tube tone, like a Whitman Sampler, the Mustang allows me the opportunity to try a variety of tastes in the same convenient box, and to apply a wide variety of pedals and other effects to color the base tone. In that way, I'm able to quickly get close to replicating any and every particular artist's tone, even if the artists' original equipment would do it better. In that way, I'm not limited by my space or budget as to what I can try. I did put a nice speaker in the Mustang, which boosted the cost, but the result was worth it.

I can't speak to the Katana, but, while the Mustang has a computer learning curve, it's not particularly tall. A couple of hours and a video or 2 allows you to push off from the side, on your own. Based on what I've read here, I suspect the Katana would be less dependent on the computer than the Mustang, which is fairly limited in its "on the go" capacities, forcing you to live with your 30 or so preset tones that you preloaded into the Mustang's memory before you left home. Unlike a single focused amp, your Mustang tone collection (unlimited if stored on the computer, but about 30 loaded into the box at any one time) can include dedicated presets for HBs, single coils, etc., using appropriate sounding amp models as bases for each.

Once I get more experience with "my" sound that I'd prefer in a single tube amp, I'll make that investment and live with its relative limitations, but for now, I'm trying it all (on the cheap)! In addition to the Mustang 2, I also have a Peavey 110 Encore and a Vox Pathfinder 15R with an 8" speaker, along with a couple of Blackstar Fly tiny practice amps. All solid state, but I find the Vox comes closest to a nice warm tube tone, so I use that when I start jonsing for a tube amp. Anyway, just my thoughts on modeling amps.
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  #18  
Old 11-25-2018, 10:55 AM
Jaden Jaden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
I'm near the start of my journey and have hardly any experience with amps, other than YT vids. Tube amps sound great, but they're expensive to buy and maintain, plus they can have noise, tube rattles, and other quirks you don't anticipate on the way in. Plus, tube amps come in a variety of flavors, some of which favor different pickups (fender/single coils, marshall/vox for HBs - I own both types, so at least 2 tube amps?), while others emulate points in time (50s vs 60s vs 70s, etc.). Within those categories dwell even more sub-categories (eg Bassman's darker tone within the fender group), not to mention the quagmire of potential Russian NOS tube combinations to be tried. The possibilities are almost infinite, even without custom makers' entries, and that's all before you get to the limitless outerspace of pedals (a form of electronic/digital modeling?). No, without some guidance/experience, this world is as overwhelming as it is expensive. To own the amps/pedals necessary to create the sounds of my heroes would exceed my available space and financial wherewithal, and then, since they all used variations on these themes, I'd be forever chasing more gear.

These are the reasons I bought my cheapo Fender Mustang 2, and why I'd consider a Katana or other modeler. While likely not completely accurate as to any particular amp type/model, and while I do appreciate a good tube tone, like a Whitman Sampler, the Mustang allows me the opportunity to try a variety of tastes in the same convenient box, and to apply a wide variety of pedals and other effects to color the base tone. In that way, I'm able to quickly get close to replicating any and every particular artist's tone, even if the artists' original equipment would do it better. In that way, I'm not limited by my space or budget as to what I can try. I did put a nice speaker in the Mustang, which boosted the cost, but the result was worth it.

I can't speak to the Katana, but, while the Mustang has a computer learning curve, it's not particularly tall. A couple of hours and a video or 2 allows you to push off from the side, on your own. Based on what I've read here, I suspect the Katana would be less dependent on the computer than the Mustang, which is fairly limited in its "on the go" capacities, forcing you to live with your 30 or so preset tones that you preloaded into the Mustang's memory before you left home. Unlike a single focused amp, your Mustang tone collection (unlimited if stored on the computer, but about 30 loaded into the box at any one time) can include dedicated presets for HBs, single coils, etc., using appropriate sounding amp models as bases for each.

Once I get more experience with "my" sound that I'd prefer in a single tube amp, I'll make that investment and live with its relative limitations, but for now, I'm trying it all (on the cheap)! In addition to the Mustang 2, I also have a Peavey 110 Encore and a Vox Pathfinder 15R with an 8" speaker, along with a couple of Blackstar Fly tiny practice amps. All solid state, but I find the Vox comes closest to a nice warm tube tone, so I use that when I start jonsing for a tube amp. Anyway, just my thoughts on modeling amps.
I think this makes a lot of sense and gives you lots of flexibility from the beginning to find out what sonic profiles you favour. I would encourage you to continue this approach. I’m one of those just happy with a clear warm tone that encourages lengthy practice sessions like a good acoustic guitar that you don’t want to put down. As far as ‘warm’ tube amp sound I think it’s just a product of higher THD (total harmonic distortion) that was and is still discussed and measured in audiophile magazines and reviews, a byproduct of old technology that younger guitarists shouldn’t be fooled into thinking is any better. Touch sensitivity should be a careful consideration though.
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  #19  
Old 11-25-2018, 11:15 AM
moon moon is offline
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There's a difference between "audiophile" (loving good sound) and "hi-fi" (faithful reproduction/amplification of an audio signal).

The "audiophiles" who designed the first guitar amps didn't do "hi-fi". Guitar amps (ie tube amps) are supposed to mess with the signal. That's exactly why they sound so good - and why we (audiophiles) love them.

And that's also why manufacturers go to such great lengths to keep convincing us that they've created another perfect emulation of tube tone - even more perfecter than the previous perfect emulation of tube tone now available in a store near you.
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  #20  
Old 11-25-2018, 12:46 PM
muscmp muscmp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moon View Post
There's a difference between "audiophile" (loving good sound) and "hi-fi" (faithful reproduction/amplification of an audio signal).

The "audiophiles" who designed the first guitar amps didn't do "hi-fi". Guitar amps (ie tube amps) are supposed to mess with the signal. That's exactly why they sound so good - and why we (audiophiles) love them.

And that's also why manufacturers go to such great lengths to keep convincing us that they've created another perfect emulation of tube tone - even more perfecter than the previous perfect emulation of tube tone now available in a store near you.
i agree. while i have, and still use solid state amps-marshall 5005, 12 watts, which is analog and sounds great for a small amp, and, the line 6 pod that i use just as an amp with no effects, my main sounds still reside in small tube amps.

just recently a friend came over to jam. he has nothing but solid state amps and sounds really good thru them. however, i plugged him directly into a 75 silverface vibrochamp and he said, "that is the sound i've been trying to achieve thru my amps and pedalboard."

it is all subjective.

play music!
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  #21  
Old 11-25-2018, 03:41 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
I think this makes a lot of sense and gives you lots of flexibility from the beginning to find out what sonic profiles you favour. I would encourage you to continue this approach. I’m one of those just happy with a clear warm tone that encourages lengthy practice sessions like a good acoustic guitar that you don’t want to put down. As far as ‘warm’ tube amp sound I think it’s just a product of higher THD (total harmonic distortion) that was and is still discussed and measured in audiophile magazines and reviews, a byproduct of old technology that younger guitarists shouldn’t be fooled into thinking is any better. Touch sensitivity should be a careful consideration though.
Re: Touch sensitivity - I'm just to the point where I think I understand what you mean. I think that's what occurring/discussed at about 7:20 in this video on the new Boss:



Re: THD/warmth - I can't put it into words, but some amps just sound good to me. One of my favorites is the Milkman Half-Pint shown in the vid below. The sound at 32 seconds or so just gives me chills - it's full but not shrill - that's what I'm thinking when I say "warm."

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  #22  
Old 11-25-2018, 07:24 PM
Jaden Jaden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
Re: Touch sensitivity - I'm just to the point where I think I understand what you mean. I think that's what occurring/discussed at about 7:20 in this video on the new Boss:



Re: THD/warmth - I can't put it into words, but some amps just sound good to me. One of my favorites is the Milkman Half-Pint shown in the vid below. The sound at 32 seconds or so just gives me chills - it's full but not shrill - that's what I'm thinking when I say "warm."

Yes, I really like full bell like clean from the Milkman amp and can concur with you regarding warmth; it’s also a good example of full tone that really doesn’t benefit in my opinion with the addition of reverb. With acoustic guitars my preference is about the same - clear and full, immediate rather than drenched in wet reverb. Re touch sensitivity the ss amps are becoming so refined and flexible the consumer nowadays is spoiled for choices. It’s a good time to be a guitarist.

Last edited by Jaden; 11-25-2018 at 07:36 PM.
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  #23  
Old 11-25-2018, 07:51 PM
Jaden Jaden is offline
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Just to add: Steve DeRosa talks about analog amplification among a host of other subjects and what he says should be considered carefully. My amps have been analog and my audio system at home is the same. Digital audio is imperceptibly paper thin and I myself have become tired of it, so this note is to let you know where I stand on the issue, as well as having no experience with solid state amps so far. There is an immediate connection between amp and guitar with the old technology which leads to touch sensitivity in terms of the ability to coax different sound just by the way the guitarist touches the strings.

Last edited by Jaden; 11-26-2018 at 01:02 AM.
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  #24  
Old 11-25-2018, 09:03 PM
The Kid! The Kid! is offline
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Nice, more for me then!
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  #25  
Old 11-26-2018, 10:55 AM
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So many things contribute to how an amp sounds on any given day that it's hard to quantify in words, no matter how articulate one might be. There are days when I find my tone lacking, and my playing uninspired as a result. I'll come back the next day - same guitar, same amp, same exact settings on both - and it's beautiful. Fabulous, chills-inducing tone that makes me play and sing the way I always want to, but sometimes can't. Go figure. Having said that:
I love my Katana 100.
I love my EC Vibro Champ.
I love my Mustang III.
I love my Princeton Reverb.
I like all my amps, and there are lots of 'em, but you get the idea: There are crappy SS amps, and there are good ones. There are crappy tube amps, and there are good ones. And as players, we have crappy days, and good ones.
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:23 AM
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I really like the tone of the "Milkman" amps until I saw the price...really?? Starting at 1500.00, if you really "need" that sound it is very good but...for home use? Sorry, I'll check out some others.
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:01 AM
roylor4 roylor4 is offline
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I just about bought a Katana. The cleans were very good, but sterile to my ears (I have been blowing harp through tube amps since the '90's). I also like my amps to be simple. For a gigging musician that needs it's features, the 50 watt Katana is hard to beat. It's very light weight makes it a valuable tool as well as it's diverse functionality. It's tone wasn't for me, but I didn't really give it a thorough test drive.

Although I prefer simple tube amps, I have now become a pedal-junky - so it's 6 of one, half dozen of the other I guess.

When I was looking, I also considered the Bluescube. The Vox heads in person convinced me to go another route. If I go SS, it will be an Orange Crush. Brutal distortion channel.
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:50 AM
M Sarad M Sarad is offline
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I just received a 1980 Black face Deluxe Reverb from Laurent Brondel. It is super clean. Took it to band practice last night. At 22 watts it’s far louder than either of my Tweed Deluxes.

Super clean with volume at 3, I used my Zen Drive to get it closer to my Tweed Deluxe tone. My tweeds, an old Fender and a newer Victoria, are great for practice, but live without a microphone aren’t cutting through. Another problem us that after 45 minutes they sometimes get a crappy brown tone and lose headroom.

We shall see how the new DR is live.
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moon View Post
There's a difference between "audiophile" (loving good sound) and "hi-fi" (faithful reproduction/amplification of an audio signal).

The "audiophiles" who designed the first guitar amps didn't do "hi-fi". Guitar amps (ie tube amps) are supposed to mess with the signal. That's exactly why they sound so good - and why we (audiophiles) love them.

And that's also why manufacturers go to such great lengths to keep convincing us that they've created another perfect emulation of tube tone - even more perfecter than the previous perfect emulation of tube tone now available in a store near you.
Funny - in Audiophile circles and magazines, I have always understood Audiophile to be 100% about "faithful reproduction/applification of an audio signal". It's about reproducing at home what was intended in the recording studio. That is why there are often no tone controls, etc on audiophile equipment.

Hi-fi - is somewhat about the above too, but IMO leans toward having a good clean stereo / video system to reproduce the sound - with lots of ability to customize with tone controls, effects, etc.

Perhaps semantics. Enjoy the music!
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:02 AM
jazzguy jazzguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Sarad View Post
I just received a 1980 Black face Deluxe Reverb from Laurent Brondel. It is super clean. Took it to band practice last night. At 22 watts it’s far louder than either of my Tweed Deluxes.

Super clean with volume at 3, I used my Zen Drive to get it closer to my Tweed Deluxe tone. My tweeds, an old Fender and a newer Victoria, are great for practice, but live without a microphone aren’t cutting through. Another problem us that after 45 minutes they sometimes get a crappy brown tone and lose headroom.

We shall see how the new DR is live.
The DR is a classic gigging amp and sounds wonderful. If it doesn't cut through the mix, I would look at your tone controls of your guitar and amp. I heard a very interesting comment in a guitar magazine once which explained alot. I can't remember who they were, but they were very famous. They said something to the effect of "on stage, you have to learn to compromise between super great tone and cutting thru the mix". In other words, playing an electric through any amp by itself, you dial in the tone you like and play. But as soon as you bring the band in, it often get's lost regardless of the amp. Often we have to bring down the bass and/or bring in the mids. It might not sound ideal on stage, but the audience is hearing a very balanced mix. Hope that makes sense. YMMV
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