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  #16  
Old 01-15-2021, 04:55 PM
BEJ BEJ is offline
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Originally Posted by warfrat73 View Post
I'm well aware of that... which is fine if I stick with it. Just don't want to start throwing too much money at it and not stick with it (like I did the first time around). Thus the easing into it part.
A lot of good points offered so far. Maybe throwing money isn't always the answer, it's more like revising/rethinking what you are doing as you start out as a beginner. This could have some cost to revise/change your tools/jigs if needed.

I found out some of the things you thought were easy turned out to be hard and hard things easier than first thought. About the only way to find this out it build something.

It could be like Mike Tyson is reputed to have said "As soon as the first punch is landed all the fancy plans go out the window." or something like that.

Bruce,
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  #17  
Old 01-15-2021, 05:43 PM
Dave Abrahamson Dave Abrahamson is offline
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I have a few Starret combination inch-metric rules at 150 mm, and would be lost without them both for measurements and as straight edges. You'll need some sort of good measuring tools.
I worked at the original Starrett Tool Company in Athol ,MA in the scale room. Chrome plating scales from 6 inches to 6 feet, (those six footers were $$$$)
When I started I called them rulers...once!😉😁😁
Forever now referred to as "scales"
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  #18  
Old 01-15-2021, 07:32 PM
phavriluk phavriluk is offline
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Problem being that in order to complete a project, there's no avoiding some tooling, or tools, no matter how few instruments are made. We all needed a minimum suite of various tools and fixtures and clamps and....
or else the project can't be completed.
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  #19  
Old 01-16-2021, 09:22 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Not to say that I don't use modern tooling, but it's worth doing a bit of Youtube views of the instrument makers in Paracho, Mexico who often do a lot of guitar building with little more than a few hand tools. The entire town is dedicated to hand built instruments of all types, with anything from "tourist trade" to exceptional quality classical guitars being built there.

I've played a few of the guitars and a violin that came from Paracho and they were very high quality instruments. Don't underestimate what can be done with hand tools at minimal investment.

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  #20  
Old 01-16-2021, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Not to say that I don't use modern tooling, but it's worth doing a bit of Youtube views of the instrument makers in Paracho, Mexico who often do a lot of guitar building with little more than a few hand tools. The entire town is dedicated to hand built instruments of all types, with anything from "tourist trade" to exceptional quality classical guitars being built there.

I've played a few of the guitars and a violin that came from Paracho and they were very high quality instruments. Don't underestimate what can be done with hand tools at minimal investment.
This is a good point Rudy. I have become enamored of Michael Bashkin's "Luthier on Luthier" podcast and hear many of the interviewed luthiers dependence on technology to produce that consistent product. It's nice to see that you can still create a stellar instrument with traditional methods.

Best,

Rick

PS - I've been going back and forth on purchasing Trevor Gore's book, "Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build, " which is likely the ultimate paean to acoustic analysis and technology in luthiery. But then, I'm just a wannabee .
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  #21  
Old 01-16-2021, 10:22 AM
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Well said.
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  #22  
Old 01-16-2021, 10:27 AM
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Well said.
Glad you liked it. IMO, the ultimate signature quotation.

Best,

Rick
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  #23  
Old 01-16-2021, 12:07 PM
warfrat73 warfrat73 is online now
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I was just looking around in the basement. And apparently I don't have the larger bench plane that I thought I had. I must have lost it when I moved from Wisconsin to NY. So the only functional plane that I have at the moment is an older Stanley #220 (a block plane).

I also have this old wooden plane that I bought for purely decorative purposes (no blade or wedge). Now, obviously I'm new to this, but it's probably not worth trying to get this up and running for joining, is it:



Any recommendations on a modestly priced bench plane that will work?
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  #24  
Old 01-16-2021, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by warfrat73 View Post
I was just looking around in the basement. And apparently I don't have the larger bench plane that I thought I had. I must have lost it when I moved from Wisconsin to NY. So the only functional plane that I have at the moment is an older Stanley #220 (a block plane).

I also have this old wooden plane that I bought for purely decorative purposes (no blade or wedge). Now, obviously I'm new to this, but it's probably not worth trying to get this up and running for joining, is it:



Any recommendations on a modestly priced bench plane that will work?
The secret to planes warfrat, is the blade and the “tuning” of the tool. It’s difficult to find a modern rendition of the traditional Stanley plane that lives up to the legacy. You might try looking at local tool swap pages (there are a bunch on Facebook) to find some older planes, possibly you’ll find them on eBay. You can pay top dollar for some of the German and Scandinavian planes and you will not be disappointed.

But really, it’s possible to make almost any plane ‘sing’ if you know how to flatten it, how to sharpen it and how to use it. The Stanley planes from the 1930s, 40s and 50s were incredible workhorses.

Best,

Rick
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  #25  
Old 01-16-2021, 01:41 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is online now
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Originally Posted by srick View Post
PS - I've been going back and forth on purchasing Trevor Gore's book, "Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build, " ....
I think it depends upon what you want from reading a book on guitar design and making. If one wants the specific information contained in those books, they are a must-have. If not, they probably aren't money well-spent.

In my opinion, they are the best of what they offer. But, you have to be interested in specifically that.
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  #26  
Old 01-16-2021, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
I think it depends upon what you want from reading a book on guitar design and making. If one wants the specific information contained in those books, they are a must-have. If not, they probably aren't money well-spent.

In my opinion, they are the best of what they offer. But, you have to be interested in specifically that.
Good point Charles. I love hearing all viewpoints and then synthesizing my own solutions that jibe with my observations. Trevor Gore’s background and interview with Michael Bashkin was fascinating. His work is so evidence based! And I’m sure his guitars sound wonderful, but in the end, I’ll bet they sound just like guitars.

As I plan ahead to my first build (some day), I think I am coming to terms with the fact that no matter what I do, that first build will sound like a guitar. It might not have the finesse of a custom job made by an expert, but will probably be decent enough. It’s awfully fun to dream and think that I might find the “holy grail of bracing” that the rest of the world has missed, but it’s highly unlikely.

I guess that these books serve as a great instrument to help me dream of possibilities.

Best,

Rick
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Last edited by srick; 01-16-2021 at 01:57 PM.
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  #27  
Old 01-16-2021, 01:58 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is online now
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Originally Posted by warfrat73 View Post
Any recommendations on a modestly priced bench plane that will work?
Nearly ever woodworker has his or her favourite size, configuration and brand of plane: you'll get many recommendations.

What is important to recognize is that to work really well, any plane needs to be setup well and have a sharp blade. Generally, less expensive planes aren't setup well: they are a kit, though not sold as one. To make a less expensive plane work well, one usually needs to spend some hours in "fettling" it - flattening the sole, cleaning up the chip breaker (for bevel-down planes), flattening and shaping the blade, etc. Part of what makes the plane less expensive is that the factory didn't put the work (expense) into that fettling. If the "bones" of the plane are good, you can save money by buying less expensive and then putting in that labour yourself. There are many less expensive planes on the market.

One can often avoid much of that work by buying a plane that has already had that work done to it at the factory. That that work has been done at the factory adds to the price of the plane. Lie-Nielsen sells planes pretty much ready to go out of the box, but to hone the blade. Lee Valley does also, though I recently bought a "second" that didn't work well at all. I flattened the sole and then it worked fine. I've found that unusual for Lee Valley planes. ("Seconds" are supposed to be functionally the same as "firsts" but for cosmetic issues.) Wood River brand is also good, and less expensive, being made in China.

So, you can chose to spend more on a plane, and have much of the work already done, or spend less and put your own labour into making the plane function well.

One potential source of less expensive planes are used planes that will need new/thicker blades and a bunch of fettling.

For size, a standard smoothing plane is probably the best all-around choice for a single plane - a 4-1/2 or 5. It can be used for thicknessing tops, backs and sides and can be used for jointing tops and backs. To use it for jointing, make sure that the sides of the plane are 90 degrees to the sole: not all planes are designed that way.
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  #28  
Old 01-16-2021, 02:11 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is online now
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Originally Posted by srick View Post
As I plan ahead to my first build (some day), I think I am coming to terms with the fact that no matter what I do, that first build will sound like a guitar. It might not have the finesse of a custom job made by an expert, but will probably be decent enough.
I think that is entirely true.

If one follows any one of the tried-and-true construction patterns and methods, one is pretty much guaranteed to have a pretty good sounding instrument. If one goes off on one's own tangent and does radically different things in terms of design and construction, the outcome is less likely.

As many have said, a first guitar is a woodworking project. You follow the "instructions" of what others before you have done and found to produce desirable results.


Quote:
It’s awfully fun to dream and think that I might find the “holy grail of bracing” that the rest of the world has missed, but it’s highly unlikely.
And, that's the catch: there is no holy grail of bracing. (There isn't even a holy grain of guitar sound since there are so many different subjective opinions on what "good" is.) The guitar is the sum of the interaction of its parts. What you do with each of those parts determines the outcome of the whole. It isn't any one of those parts in isolation.

One of the things that Trevor Gore's books do is make that very clear using partial differential equations.

Quote:
I guess that these books serve as a great instrument to help me dream of possibilities.
Trying to "hit it out of the park" on a first instrument isn't realistic. Making a good sounding, well-playing first guitar is entirely realistic, if one sticks to the tried-and-true.


I repeatedly suggest that first-time guitar makers stick to any ONE tried-and-true method from start to finish. By picking a bit from here and a bit from there, the first-time maker is putting him or her self in the position of being "system integrator" for a system with which they have no real experience. Cherry-picking from various sources makes it much less likely to guarantee a successful outcome, not only of the sound but of the mechanical/geometric requirements.
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  #29  
Old 01-16-2021, 02:52 PM
warfrat73 warfrat73 is online now
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Ok, I just ordered a Stanley Bailey No. 5 from ebay (based on what I can find, I think it's a type 16 which would put it between 1933-1941).

It looks solid and not too rusty, but could use a cleaning. And I'm sure I'll need to set it up (but maybe I'll get lucky and find some old timer did a bang up job on it). Tax and shipping included, I paid a few bucks less than the brand new "Stanley Bailey" branded planes you can buy at Home Depot.

So that's sorted for now.
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  #30  
Old 01-16-2021, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by warfrat73 View Post
Ok, I just ordered a Stanley Bailey No. 5 from ebay (based on what I can find, I think it's a type 16 which would put it between 1933-1941).

It looks solid and not too rusty, but could use a cleaning. And I'm sure I'll need to set it up (but maybe I'll get lucky and find some old timer did a bang up job on it). Tax and shipping included, I paid a few bucks less than the brand new "Stanley Bailey" branded planes you can buy at Home Depot.

So that's sorted for now.
Good luck with your purchase! Suggestion: go to the Fine Woodworking Magazine website and see if you can find one of their articles on 'tuning up a plane'. Long ago, that is how I learned the art.

Also, you need to hone (ouch - apologies for the pun) your sharpening skills. All of your cutting tools need to be sharp enough to shave the back of your hand. A razor sharp tool can take your woodworking skills a long way.

best,

Rick
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