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  #1  
Old 12-15-2020, 05:00 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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Default A.Lauro's "Natalia" Which arranger ?

Hi,
I have/play the Lauro "Natalia" (Venezuelan Waltz) version by A. V. Blain..
It's entirely in 3/4 time..
I recently saw the version by Felix Rodriguez version which mixes 6/8 and 3/4..
1) Do you know which was the original version ?
2) Which do you play ?
3) Do you think the listener can hear the difference ?
4) What are your thoughts about these ?

Thanks, M
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  #2  
Old 12-15-2020, 06:04 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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I always think of the Alirio Diaz versions as authoritative, but I could be wrong.

In that version the time signature is listed as 3/4 6/8, and I am not sure what that implies. Maybe that it alternates. You can see it here:

https://www.slideshare.net/Pachanito...-antonio-lauro

Also some very useful information here by Luis Zea, where he talks about the waltzes, and this particular piece, and a bit about the 3/4 and 6/8 time:

https://www.siempreflamenco.com/Part...ro%20Notes.pdf
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Old 12-15-2020, 07:43 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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mc1,
Though you needn't have done so on such a grand scale, I thank you profusely for the work and effort you put in to link all this to me !!
I've already checked out quite allot including some mental solfeggiating (to coin a word) some of the 'musics' in there !
The Diaz version only puts the two time sigs up front, whereas the Rodriguez version has them changing throughout the whole piece and wonder either way if the listener actually hears it as so..
Thanks again,
Mark

Reply not necessary (I've enough reading ahead of me as it is !)
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Old 12-15-2020, 08:22 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkinLA View Post
mc1,
Though you needn't have done so on such a grand scale, I thank you profusely for the work and effort you put in to link all this to me !!
I've already checked out quite allot including some mental solfeggiating (to coin a word) some of the 'musics' in there !
The Diaz version only puts the two time sigs up front, whereas the Rodriguez version has them changing throughout the whole piece and wonder either way if the listener actually hears it as so..
Thanks again,
Mark

Reply not necessary (I've enough reading ahead of me as it is !)
Hi Mark,

It was no trouble at all. I really like the Lauro pieces and think I have the sheet music and recordings for most of them.

I don't think the time signatures have any effect on the piece other than classifying the rhythms after the fact. That's just a guess.

If I listen to Felix's recording here:
https://www.free-scores.com/MP3T/lau...ollo-81683.mp3
from this page:
https://www.free-scores.com/download....php?pdf=81683
the rhythm sounds just like I expect it to.

And anyone following along can hear A. V. Blain here:


How do the Blain and Rodriguez fingerings compare to the Diaz? I quickly compared the Rodriguez and Diaz versions and found a couple of differences, but really pretty similar.
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Old 12-15-2020, 10:15 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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One of my favorite classical guitar pieces. I used the Albert Valdes Blain version which I bought about fifty years ago:
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/VenezuelanWaltz.pdf

A recording I did from that with some minor note and tempo changes:
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Temp/ValseCriollo.wav
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Old 12-16-2020, 06:51 PM
AndreF AndreF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
A recording I did from that with some minor note and tempo changes:
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Temp/ValseCriollo.wav
Rick, that was nice. A difficult piece to play cleanly. You nailed it!
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Old 12-16-2020, 07:03 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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Thanks again for the info.. Yes, I too play the Blain version which of course is all 3/4...I try executing the first 4 measures after the intro as if 6/8 but fail to get my mind to feel it this way...
6/8 to me means 2 triplets of eight notes: /// /// and can be tied or beamed to become 3/4. Again, tho we might be able to force ourselves to count in 6/8 Lauro's measures, I don't know if the listener could detect it, anyway. So, unless I'm missing something here, why call it anything but 3/4 ?!
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Old 12-17-2020, 07:32 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkinLA View Post
Thanks again for the info.. Yes, I too play the Blain version which of course is all 3/4...I try executing the first 4 measures after the intro as if 6/8 but fail to get my mind to feel it this way...
6/8 to me means 2 triplets of eight notes: /// /// and can be tied or beamed to become 3/4. Again, tho we might be able to force ourselves to count in 6/8 Lauro's measures, I don't know if the listener could detect it, anyway. So, unless I'm missing something here, why call it anything but 3/4 ?!
Hi Mark,

I'll give a couple of thoughts, and perhaps those with more knowledge (like Derek) can correct me or add on.

So, let's look at the start of the Rodriguez version:



I think the first bar is in 6/8 because the melody is 2 triplets, the bass is only on the 1. That rhythm continues through bar 4. I think the normal accents on the start of each triplet is a 6/8 feel, and unless you are accenting the G, open E, and open G (which would fall on the 1, 2, 3 in 3/4 time) in bar 1, you are playing with a 6/8 feel.

At bar 5, that double-triple feel isn't so strong, and the bass is now in more of a 3/4 thing, with bass notes on 1 and 3.

At bar 9 it's back to double triplets.

My feeling is that this type of notation is technically more accurate, but for convenience, Diaz and Blain just simplify it by writing 3/4 6/8, and let the performer just play the accents where they naturally fall.
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Old 12-17-2020, 08:23 AM
AndreF AndreF is offline
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Not to throw another kink into the discussion, but Valse Venezolano No. 2 as arranged by Diaz, is written as (3/4 6/8) right at the start.
Yet, it arguably plays better, accent wise, when played as 3/2 across two measures.
Don't know if that is also the case with No.3 (Valse Criollo).
So, I don't think the markings in this case are always strict rules, other than, it has to sound good!
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  #10  
Old 12-18-2020, 08:27 AM
evanpyle evanpyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
Hi Mark,

I'll give a couple of thoughts, and perhaps those with more knowledge (like Derek) can correct me or add on.

So, let's look at the start of the Rodriguez version:



I think the first bar is in 6/8 because the melody is 2 triplets, the bass is only on the 1. That rhythm continues through bar 4. I think the normal accents on the start of each triplet is a 6/8 feel, and unless you are accenting the G, open E, and open G (which would fall on the 1, 2, 3 in 3/4 time) in bar 1, you are playing with a 6/8 feel.

At bar 5, that double-triple feel isn't so strong, and the bass is now in more of a 3/4 thing, with bass notes on 1 and 3.

At bar 9 it's back to double triplets.

My feeling is that this type of notation is technically more accurate, but for convenience, Diaz and Blain just simplify it by writing 3/4 6/8, and let the performer just play the accents where they naturally fall.
You nailed it. It really helps to tap/clap out the rhythm as notated above without playing. It's the essential thing that gives those waltzes their drive and interest. It's a syncopated feel without actual syncopation.

BA-da-BA-da-BA-da, BA-da-da-BA-da-da, BA-da-da-BA-da-da and so on

Or you can say ONE-and TWO-and THREE-and, ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six, etc

Last edited by evanpyle; 12-18-2020 at 09:18 AM.
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  #11  
Old 12-19-2020, 05:06 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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Thanks very (or, should I say vary ?) much for all the replies..
I've recently began counting 6/8 where they are in the Rodriguez version (I have the Blain type).. And though I can now do this it still seems to come out the same as if all 3/4 anyway... But maybe one day it will become clear to me there is a marked difference.....
M
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