Taylor Expression System replacement

[steveyam]

As mentioning the problems with Taylor's Expression System is apparently tantamount to denying the holocaust, then maybe the experiences and utterances of others may provide further insight:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ad.php?t=65002

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQLhcL8fFBM

http://www.myspace.com/delpuckett/blog/169450682

http://www.dmbtabs.com/boards/viewto...p?f=16&t=29100

http://www.harmonycentral.com/products/112232

http://gpawf4christ.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5618

http://fenderforum.com/forum.html?db..._number=762485

http://www.acousticguitarcommunity.c...mment%3A170381

[Hambone]

I like my 914CE, but don't like the ES at all. Imho taylor introduced them for one reason... improved profitability. Bring production in house and dollars -aren't going out the door to Fishman etc. Quality of sound reproduction took a back seat to profit... Oh btw, you can make it sound better by spending $500 for a K4 and $20 for the special taylor cord, that they used to give you with the guitar. The fact that they whack you a couple of large to "upgrade" to a system that dosn't require you to wrap a post it note around the battery to keep it from rattling is a total joke.

In the auto industry they do recalls when there's a systemic issue, at Taylor mistakes become profit centers.

I admit I'm a cynic, but I feel the same about the multi piece necks and that godawful fingerjoint I have to stare at on my 914CE. Hide behind green, but don't reduce the price to reflect the manufacturing savings to the consumer.

Can you tell I'm not a fan of Bob Taylor and Kurt Listug?

[Side Man]

That's what makes this a great forum - everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

I'll have ask my sister where she bought that t-shirt that says "If you haven't got anything nice to say about anyone, come over here and sit next me".

[leeasam]

Originally Posted by steveyam

As mentioning the problems with Taylor's Expression System is apparently tantamount to denying the holocaust, then maybe the experiences and utterances of others may provide further insight:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ad.php?t=65002

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQLhcL8fFBM

http://www.myspace.com/delpuckett/blog/169450682

http://www.dmbtabs.com/boards/viewto...p?f=16&t=29100

http://www.harmonycentral.com/products/112232

http://gpawf4christ.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5618

http://fenderforum.com/forum.html?db..._number=762485

http://www.acousticguitarcommunity.c...mment%3A170381

a handfull of issues out of thousands of guitars with the ES. hardly a major problem.

Yes there were issues with some I will say that.

I have personally seen more UST based units fail that I have seen ES systems fail. Some out of the blue with no warning.

[royd]

Originally Posted by Hambone

I like my 914CE, but don't like the ES at all. Imho taylor introduced them for one reason... improved profitability. Bring production in house and dollars -aren't going out the door to Fishman etc. Quality of sound reproduction took a back seat to profit...

well, of course they didn't make a product to lose money... but this argument is silly as well. They made a system with an SBT and a magnetic pup. Lots of people love that kind of system (myself included). One of their biggest early endorsees - Chris Proctor - used their guitars without the factory intsalled Fishman systems. Instead, he put a Sunrise and an SBT through an external blender and talked a lot about how that system worked and why he used it. I'm sure those discussions were part of the genesis of the system. Add that nobody markets a similar system.

So they did an SBT with similar technology to the Schertler Dyn-G, a very highly regarded SBT, and put the magnetic pup underneath the fingerboard, addressing one of the biggest complaints about mags, that they change the look of the guitar, and built a blending pre-amp that can go either into a high imp plug or and xlr. OK, so you don't like the sound of a mag/sbt system and that is what they committed too. That's fine. You can order their guitars without the system and install whatever you like. Still sounds like a great approach well executed to me and many others. As for defective ones, I don't doubt there have been some, maybe even many. They have sold a bajillion of them, how could there not be? Still, lots of people I know have them and I've not known anyone who has had a problem.

As to the fingerjoints etc. Taylor is nothing but savvy about manufacturing and how that impacts the bottom line. They are factory guitars and they turn out scores of them. A small change in materials costs adds up significantly, but they still have a commitment to putting out the product they envision at a price point. They built Taylors and every one I've played sounded and played like a Taylor. They tried a different line - the R Taylors - that is less factory built and it isn't working and has been discontinued, at least for the time being.

You don't have to be a fan of Taylors. They are what they are. They aren't my favorites and I would never own one as my main guitar. There are tons of other great guitars out there...

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by leeasam

a handfull of issues out of thousands of guitars with the ES. hardly a major problem.

Yes there were issues with some I will say that.

I have personally seen more UST based units fail that I have seen ES systems fail. Some out of the blue with no warning.

Oh sorry I didn't make myself clear - that's not the lot! just a few cases on tinternet. But I'm sure you knew that. But in which case your reply doesn't make sense does it? Hmm, oh never mind. The early ES systems were a big problem for Taylor. Make no mistake about that. They were just not ready to 'go live' with them. They were not developed fully, poorly designed and prone to failure, foibles, idiosyncracies; many problems. Taylor did their best to keep it as quiet as they could, but basically the word got around. In fact, in one of those links, the guy says that Bob Taylor asked him to keep quiet about his findings! Now things are bad when the founder and boss of a company is personally making those kind of pleas.

As I mentioned previously, Yamaha have gone down a similar route to Fishman by employing digital modelling that gives a very lifelike mic'd up sound. Yamaha's previous - now their second level system - was based on soundboard mounted sensors. Such technology can never sound like a mic'd up instrument, it will always sound like 'a pickup', albeit good, great, or in a satisfactory way to the vast majority of players. I have a guitar with soundboard sensors and I'm quite happy with it. I don't think the technology is anywhere near as good as SRT or Aura, but everyone is entitled to their view. But for sure, Taylor did themselves no good by releasing a system that simply was not fully developed and debugged.

[alohachris]

Steveyam,

I've been where you are now in yet another endless ES discussion, on the defensive. They're just stirring the pot with you now.

I totally agree with you. The ES is a dog among pickup systems & I wish that Bob Taylor would stick with what he does best: mass-producing decent guitars.

But ALL pickup systems will have their share of problems & detractors. The truth is that most guys here are hobbyists who do not have to apply pickup systems to a wide variety of conditions every night as do giggers. Few can make ANY pickup system work well consistently in those conditions. Simply not enough experience.

Giggers can make just about ANY pickup system work in almost any live conditions. (working well is different story).

But the ES is one pickup system that for many years has posed the most problems of consistency, performance & durability, even among giggers, IMO.

You could say the same about problems with UST's (not to mention the un-natural sound), not one of which has maintained its string-to-string balance for long when this gigger used them.

Guys, you can't deny the negative track record of the ES. Why not back off Steveyam a bit. He's got a valid point.

In the end, you really should be able to make any pickup system work, even the ES, if you have the experience & signal chain to do it.

To the OP: There are many types & brands of pickup systems out there that can improve upon your current live sound. I won't spoil the fun you'll have in researching them for yourself by naming any. However, I would listen to as many alternatives as you can before you lay down money. Dig beyond the most heavily marketed systems.

Do yourself a favor & research & consider mutli-source systems which I've found over a half-century-long gigging career to provide more options, sound quality & flexibility than any single, proprietary system or single pickup used alone of any kind. IME, the onboard systems on any brand of guitar are inferior to what you can put together for yourself.

The signal chains I put together for myself of complementary parts from many manufacturers have worked out the best for me in the many different kinds of indoor & outdoor spaces I've played. They include using 2-3 sources at the front end. In perfect rooms, I love to use a great live mic alone. But few rooms & gigs are close to even bearable. So you gotta be prepared for ALL kinds of spaces. One system or combo of sources will NOT work for all situations or rooms.

And if you like a more natural acoustic sound, then include a mic in your live mix. If you have the right controls in your signal chain, using a mic will NOT pose a feedback problem & your guitar will sound more like an acoustic guitar. That will mean less ear fatigue for you & your audiences at your gigs. If you play mostly at home, then just use great mics, skip pickups.

Good luck with your search. You've trusted your ears thus far re: the ES. Perhaps you'd be willing to go a little farther into the whole signal chain, not just the pickup system. Divergent opinions here can help inform you a bit, BUT, Only Trust Your Ears!

alohachris

[briggleman]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Steveyam,

I've been where you are now in yet another endless ES discussion, on the defensive. They're just stirring the pot with you now.
I totally agree with you. The ES is a dog among pickup systems & I wish that Bob Taylor would stick with what he does best: mass-producing decent guitars.
But ALL pickup systems will have their share of problems & detractors. The truth is that most guys here are hobbyists who do not have to apply pickup systems to a wide variety of conditions every night as do giggers. Few can make ANY pickup system work well consistently in those conditions. Simply not enough experience.
Giggers can make just about ANY pickup system work in almost any live conditions. (working well is different story).
But the ES is one pickup system that for many years has posed the most problems of consistency, performance & durability, even among giggers, IMO.
You could say the same about problems with UST's (not to mention the un-natural sound), not one of which has maintained its string-to-string balance for long when this gigger used them.

Guys, you can't deny the negative track record of the ES. Why not back off Steveyam a bit. He's got a valid point.

In the end, you really should be able to make any pickup system work, even the ES, if you have the experience & signal chain to do it.

alohachris

If you could just back up that highlighted statement above with some history, information, facts??????? Negative Track Record...... You have got to be joking..... and now just trying to stir the pot yourself!

and Steveyam has a VALID POINT????? Where is it validated????? IN his generalized and non-factual statements about mass defects???? Tell me please.

I am really OK with your opinion of the ES, either you like it or don't. Every system on the market today goes through evolution, making it better and better, just as Taylor is demonstrated through the continued growth of its ES system. Yamaha and Fishman doing the same with their product.

Why not say what you do not like about the ES in terms of its performance, sound and tone. I would dare say the original ES must have impressed someone or Bob Taylor would have dropped it like a hot potato.

Stir Stir Stir.....

[mutantrock]

Kind of a "funny" post. Listen if folks didn't like like the ES system then why does Taylor sell tons of them with the system built in? Perfectly logical to me that to some the ES sound is not as good to their ears than some other system and I am one of those folks. It does not mean ES is bad!
Most of the posts that take on this tone involve folks who own something else and don't have much experience with the ES ...hmm. Often the motivation seems to be to trumpet the system or brand that they like as opposed to factual statistical information.

[leeasam]

Hey Steveyam, I do agree the earlier systems were far from perfect-- to be honest even the latest version like I have now has a larger board with discrete components on it vs older boards so they had a reason to do this too.
I believe we agree and disagree on some of the issues with the ES and I will just leave it at that. Sorry for the banter-- peace

anyway then to the OP
as posted earlier this probably would be a nice system
http://mi-si.com/2011/01/22/align-xt/
and one could also run it into a Fishman aura. there would be more possibilities.

I do find the ad a bit funny-- not really true about being battery free. it DOES have a small rechargable battery built into the unit-- just not user replacable off the shelf like most others.

[royd]

Originally Posted by leeasam

I do find the ad a bit funny-- not really true about being battery free. it DOES have a small rechargable battery built into the unit-- just not user replacable off the shelf like most others.

Actually, it uses a supercapacitor rather than a battery to store energy... a very different technology which is why it can be charged to capacity in 60 seconds. check out their FAQ page for a little more info

[leeasam]

Originally Posted by royd

Actually, it uses a supercapacitor rather than a battery to store energy... a very different technology which is why it can be charged to capacity in 60 seconds. check out their FAQ page for a little more info

ah-- yup technically it is not a battery--

[kscobie8]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

I thought this thread was supposed to be about expression system replacement options, not a rehash of the same "old" thread.

The thread is about whatever is brought to the discussion. An opinion was offered, and I offered mine in return. As I said, it's organic. I also offered a solution to what a poster had an issue with.

FWIW, it's relatively easy to order a Taylor guitar sans electronics and add whatever system you prefer.


Bel isi,
-kyle

[Rick Shepherd]

Originally Posted by kscobie8

The thread is about whatever is brought to the discussion. An opinion was offered, and I offered mine in return. As I said, it's organic. I also offered a solution to what a poster had an issue with.

FWIW, it's relatively easy to order a Taylor guitar sans electronics and add whatever system you prefer.


Bel isi,
-kyle

Alrob started this thread wanting to know options for ES replacement. That is what this thread is about.

[Stoneheart]

i found a tasmanian blackwood 426ce ltd with the newer es system installed in it... i tried several different ways to get it to sound natural to my ear and was unsuccessful... i went with the LR Baggs hex saddle system and for me, that was the ticket... it works with my PA system or my acoustic amps and sounds like the guitar... the es system sounded more electric than acoustic to me, but thats my take on it... i'm glad we dont all like the same thing as then i would have to question my perception...